Can anyone confirm my short-hand version of Koniak status?

[ElKavallero]

Waiving the new guy flag to subvert any ill-feelings about this..
I weaved through the numerous threads I found, but there's a lot of filler there for what I'm looking for. For the record, I only care because I like Koniak, and only just began reading about Kava research.

The story as I see it:
1. Koniak is a 'brand name' for a PNG strain sold by BKH
2. Koniak is also the general term used locally in PNG for some wild strains
3. An expert ran tests on strains, one of those strains was labeled 'Koniak'
4. The strain in this test is assuredly not the same strain branded and sold as Koniak by BKH
5. BKH suppliers have assured BKH that the Koniak branded strain they supply is NOT of the variety stong in the offending compounds.
6. BKH has acknowledged that the chemotype of their Koniak brand is such that it is not recommended for every day drinking, not because it is high in the offending substances, but because it is higher in compounds that may get you floored.

Do I have the short and long of it?

 

[infraredz]

1. Under my understanding, yes.
2. Not sure although "wild koniak" is a term used to refer to kava plants (I think in PNG).
3. Yes.
4. Yes and no. The Vanuatu Dept of Ag. tested a variety of kava called "Koniak" that grows in Vanuatu and that tested as a tudei. The kava sold by BKH was also tested and confirmed to be tudei, although I;m not sure genetically how much difference there is between the PNG strain and the Vanuatu strain.
5. Yes, although the people of PNG have not tested it using HPTLC like the Dpt. of Ag in Vanuatu did (if they did, I don't think I've heard of it).
6. Yes, although according to Dr. Lebot, all tudei kava is high in FKB (the offending substance) and the Koniak sold was tested to be tudei, therefore having high levels of FKB.

I'm not sure if BKH's Koniak has undergone quantitative tests to show the level of FKB.

 

[ElKavallero]

My confusion is that BKH explicitly stated that the Koniak in the test is NOT the Koniak he sells. This directly contradicts point 4...I guess I see why this has been so confusing.

I didn't see anything confirming conclusively that the EXACT stuff BKH sells was exactly what the Dr. put in the tube and tested....I've only seen claims to the contrary?

 

[infraredz]

As to point 4, see this quote by Andrew: "As per the Koniak sold by a vendor here, when a sample of it was tested, it did not come back as noble at the Dept. of Ag. in Vanuatu"

When talking to Lebot, he told me with certainty that Koniak is a two-day, and it is found in the same basin where Isa is in PNG. No "good" kavas are found there. As per the Koniak sold by a vendor here, when a sample of it was tested, it did not come back as noble at the Dept. of Ag. in Vanuatu. When I mentioned to Vincent that some were talking of "borderline" two-day, he laughed.. apparently it is like being borderline pregnant.
The variation of ratios of Flavokawains to kavalactones is HUGE in non-noble vs. noble kavas. This is why there is a .3 ratio being proposed for the CODEX, which I support. This is higher than most noble, but not nearly as high as non-noble kavas would contain, and would protect a shipment of a bunch of kava if there was some non-noble matter mixed in with it accidentally, yet still appears to be below the threshold of concern.

http://www.kavaforums.com/forum/thr...aily-post-the-end-of-kava-exports.2157/page-4


EDIT: I also independently confirmed it was tudei using Lebot's methodology for solvent qualitative tests.

I sent Lebot the entirety of my post and he did indeed confirm (independently, without the labels of each kava's name) that the sample in the middle (Koniak) was tudei. He also confirmed the validity of my methodology with the only comment being that the supernatant can be further refined using a centrifuge.

You can see that here:

I figured we all know Boroguru is a common noble kava. I'm calling this the control. "Koniak" as shown by the following report was reported to be tudei based on qualitative analysis. Based on the above technique, I decided to determine if BKH's Koniak is a tudei (based on the standard in the video [dark color]) and if Solomon's Island by Nakamal at Home is Piper wichmanii (based on the standard in the video [very dark color]) as some have theorized.

Materials and Methods:
25mL of acetone was added to 2 teaspoons (approximately 10mL of mass, but mL is measurement of a liquid but this gives a "clearer" ratio) of each kava and agitated for 4 minutes then left to settle for 24 hours. Visual examination of the acetonic portion of the suspension for hue, saturation and darkness is described by Lebot as the method of determination of tudei, wichmanii and noble kavas. Samples were backlit and photographed.

The ratios of solvent to sample were kept constant. The reason for seemingly different amounts of kava at the bottom is due to the differing grinds (upon close inspection, the larger [most dense] particles settle lower).
Results:
View attachment 58

Comparison between Boroguru on the left and Koniak on the right. Both samples were isolated and photographed with black flags on either side. Photos were then merged into Photoshop and 'split' then combined. Any white balance or curve adjustment was done on the combined image as a whole. The reason why the foreground of the Boroguru sample shows yellow is due to the sample being less opaque (therefore allowing more light from backlight through) than the Koniak sample which, as stated above is more opaque.
View attachment 60

Discussion:
Something that might not be immediately apparent from the photograph is that Boroguru is the clearest of all the samples, and I suspect that without a centrifuge, the smaller particles responsible for the cloudiness of the other two samples might not decant completely but I will wait another 8-12 hours and see.

The glass quality is poor as well as fairly thick, giving seemingly different tones from one side to the other. I'm waiting on some lab quality glassware. Just speaking from photo-geekness, it would be best to evaluate the central part of each sample for the most accurate representation of the actual color (due to refractivity of different wavelengths through the glass)

It's interesting to note that flavokavain A, B, and C are all chalconoids and conjugate ring closures result in flavonoids which are responsible for a wide variety of plant pigmentation (eg. red vs yellow, for example). These chalconoids (FKA, FKB, FKC) reportedly possess antibacterial, antifungal, antitumor and anti-inflammatory properties (sound similar to kava?). Some chalconoids have demonstrated the ability to block voltage-dependent potassium channels (which is a proposed hypothesis regarding the MOA of kava, and in my opinion, sounds very likely to play a significant role in kava's effects). [http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18032041]

I wonder if these secondary metabolites are in fact more important in the overall biosynthesis of different compounds than I thought. Flavonoids are responsible for a significant amount of color in a plant, and so I'mreally interested if the reason we are seeing tudeis (which have FKB, unlike nobles) show a red color vs. the "control" of yellow is because of the conjugation of this phenyl ring which would cause it to to become a flavonoid, which in turn possesses specific color properties. Could the acetone/solvent be doing this? Chalconoids by themselves don't necessarily have color properties, but they serve as the intermediate in the biosynthesis to the flavonoids that do.

This is something that is being investigated as a possible mechanism behind the differences in supernatant color.

 

[brett123]

I'm gonna contact bkh and ask for a refund as I'm not happy drinking potentially dangerous stuff ... Vanuatu kava store for me from now on they print the full tests of each variety in pdf format it also gives a good idea of strength as well


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[sɥɐʞɐs]

You could probably safely add a few tablespoons of it to your other stuff every once in a while 'til it's gone. Not claiming anything official on that though.
Your local grocery store also sells potentially dangerous stuff.

 

[brett123]

I'd love to but I don't have the resources and it's 1kg unopened delivered today I'll have to wait until refund till I get new kava this take an age at least another 3 weeks without my beautiful drink


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[infraredz]

You could probably safely add a few tablespoons of it to your other stuff every once in a while 'til it's gone. Not claiming anything official on that though.
Your local grocery store also sells potentially dangerous stuff.

I agree. I was given Koniak by a very generous member here back when a lot of the conversation was happening. Even after testing it and confirming with Dr. Lebot that it was indeed tudei, I still consumed it albeit in very small amounts (1 tablespoon per 6-7 tablespoons of my other kavas).

I don't know about getting a refund but it's worth a shot.

 

[ElKavallero]

Well despite all of this, there still has not been a single confirmed case of liver damage occurring from traditionally prepared Kava...no one has linked the previous liver damage scare of years ago to this FKB heavy cultivar, nor is there anything quantitative about the potential damage caused by FKB...meaning, compared to having 2 drinks of alcohol every day, it could be comparable.

I guess what I'm saying is the information we do have is not really very helpful...people pretty much want to stay alive, and it doesn't seem that the information provided suggests any thing contrary if you consume this stuff.

 

[Alien]

I would disagree with point number 1 you make if for no other reason than, from what I remember (and I have a great memory) BKH states/stated the only 'brand name' kava they sell where they 'made the name up' is Nambawan. I could still be wrong but that's my recollection.

 

[brett123]

I wouldn't be scared of binging on the weekend 10x beers it'll poison my liver a bit I'll be hungover 2 days and I fairly sure I'll recover least I have until now .


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[brett123]

But a poisonous wild kava with proven toxicity of unknown proportions .... I doubt if ill drink alcohol as I'm being healthier and I can't risk the unknown data


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[infraredz]

Well despite all of this, there still has not been a single confirmed case of liver damage occurring from traditionally prepared Kava...no one has linked the previous liver damage scare of years ago to this FKB heavy cultivar, nor is there anything quantitative about the potential damage caused by FKB...meaning, compared to having 2 drinks of alcohol every day, it could be comparable.

I guess what I'm saying is the information we do have is not really very helpful...people pretty much want to stay alive, and it doesn't seem that the information provided suggests any thing contrary if you consume this stuff.

You're right (for the meantime, before a certain paper is published). There is, however, quantitative data in regards to FKB, in addition to the paper that is soon to be published. The quantitative data might not be of the sort which makes comparison to alcohol easy, but it is documented. This additional quantitative data relating to the toxicity of FKB might not be as easy to digest as we would like, however.

I just would choose to listen to a doctor who literally wrote the book on kava, as well as an in vivo study of severe hepatotoxicity from FKB as a good reason to avoid it, as well as other journals that have published articles confirming its potent cytotoxicity.

The liver damage scare was not due to Koniak, but that's a completely separate and distinct issue.

The cause or mechanism behind the toxicity was either due to FKB or aerial portions of the plant. It's that simple.

Now, I hear a dude with a doctorate in plant genetics who makes kava research his life tell me not to drink tudei... well, I guess it's up to you. I think the onus should be on the producer/wholesaler to show that it is certified rather than the average consumer who knows not what hepatotoxicity even means.

Also, just to clarify something, it's not being claimed that this kava (Koniak) is of the piper wichmannii (wild) variant. Lebot said that the supernatant of the tincture would be far darker than it was.

EDIT: It's also worth noting that this statement is correct "there still has not been a single confirmed case of liver damage occurring from traditionally prepared Kava". The problem in that logic however, is that tudei kava has not been traditionally prepared. The natives have not used non-noble kava other than in very rare circumstances, and it's my understanding that even when they consumed non-noble kava, it was of a class referred to as "medicinal". Of course, what that means, I have no idea but it is important to start using this lexicon as that is what the Codex will be using to my understanding.

traditional |trəˈdiSHənl|
adjective
existing in or as part of a tradition; long-established: the traditional festivities of the church year.

 

[ElKavallero]

thanks for that, could you clarify the bit about the Koniak? Is it saying the tests were NOT consistent with either noble OR tudei results?

 

[infraredz]

Well, you would have to ask Andrew regarding his statement ["As per the Koniak sold by a vendor here, when a sample of it was tested, it did not come back as noble at the Dept. of Ag. in Vanuatu"] but I would imagine that it was tested to be tudei.

Furthermore, Dr. Lebot said that sample 2[Koniak] (which is the way I labeled it for him, so that it was blind) was tudei.

What I was referring to is the recent publication by Lebot et al., "Detection of flavokavins (A, B, C) in cultivars of kava (Piper methysticum) using high performance thin layer chromatography (HPTLC)" which introduces this idea of "medicinal" kava.

From the Introduction:

"The objectives are: to detect the presence of flavokavins in extracts and to compare the FKB levels in different cultivars. Overall, 172 samples originating from four cultivars groups (noble, medicinal, two-days and wichmannii), were analysed. Results indicate that the ratio FKB/kavalactones is much higher in two-days (0.39) and wichmannii (0.32) compared to nobles (0.09) and medicinal cultivars (0.10). For each group, the ratios flavokavins/kavalactones do not change significantly between roots, stumps or basal stems and among clones, indicating that they are genetically controlled."​

The short answer is that it is tudei (according to my test, if nothing else). Further, there is the statement that it "it did not come back as noble at the Dept. of Ag. ..." which aligns with the result from the solvent test.

 

[Bula Kava House]

1. Our Koniak is a brand name.
2. Koniak is a PNG pidgin term for ALL kava, and there is also a strain of kava known as Koniak. The PNG kava we sell is NOT the strain known as Koniak. Our Koniak is definitely NOT a wild strain!!!
3. Yes, an expert ran a cool color test thingy on something called Koniak.
4. The strain tested likely was our Koniak, as Andrew from this forum was the one who made the effort to have it tested. Of course he didn't let me know ahead of time that he would be doing that.
5. I've been told that this kava is not BELIEVED to he high in FKB, but I do not have a test to show that. It is enjoyed safely by people where it is grown.
6. We do not recommend Koniak for daily drinking because it is very strong.

I still believe that traditionally prepared kava made from root only is absolutely safe. I don't believe that the higher levels of FKB in tudei kavas make them inherently unsafe. People have been drinking tudei kava for thousands of years, more than on very rare occasions. To my knowledge, no traditionally made kava has ever caused liver problems, and people actually HAVE been regularly drinking the Koniak that I sell for decades. Maybe the aqueous extraction process doesn't pull enough out, maybe FKB isn't as bad as we think, maybe our bodies can handle a lot more than we are giving them credit for. I do know that I took four Advil and had a vodka soda last night that I'm sure did MUCH more damage to my liver than the two shells of Koniak I had earlier in the day.

It's the solvent extracts that I could see being more of a problem. They suck out all the compounds, so if there's some bad shit in the root they use, that could cause a problem. We will not make a solvent extract from any of our kava.

 

[The Kap'n]

Question answered by vendor.
Closing thread.