Could kava/alcohol toxicity be overstated, even in the kava community ?

[SelfBiasResistor]

Warning this is a bit of off topic rant...
I disagree. Not with the recommendation to not do it, but with specifically and intentionally sowing FUD. At least in the US this is a huge problem with our "war on drugs" and more specifically the old "just say no" program. By not having real discussions on both the positive and negative aspects of drugs you drive up the risk. When I grew up we were warned incessantly about the evils of these substances....and when you found out it was full of lies and bullshit you automatically assumed it was ALL lies and bullshit. When you had your first drink, or smoked your first joint and not only lived to tell about it but had a damn good time - you were inclined to think well hell maybe all that bad stuff they tell me is also bullshit. You start to wonder is cocaine really that addictive or is it bullshit? Is heroin really that bad or did they lie about that as well? You can see where this eventually leads.
We should strive to be honest about all aspects of kava - good and bad and build trust with the community. That way when they ask our opinion they trust the answer.

I agree 100%.

Just look at the good using FUD did for the community when it came to the topic of tudei.. resulted in masses of confused and misinformed consumers (the tudei is responsible for liver failure talk, all of the roughly 100 cultivars are bad and have no possible future benefit, etc). FUD is also the most common tactic for competing industries and US government regulators to demonize and restrict consumer access to herbs. It's an effective tactic when there is lack of science to back up the opinions/recommendations but sowing fear and uncertainty is a good way to risk the future availability of kava.

 

[SelfBiasResistor]

Also, does anyone else remember hearing that this is more common with people of Asian and European nationality? If I remember correctly, the darker your skin tone, the less likely you are to experience effects between alcohol and kava. This could explain why some nations even incorporate a "wash down" session after kava involving alcohol of some type and experience no negative effects. Then again, I could be totally wrong, and it might not.

It is more common with Asians. I don't think we would have the historical advancements in wine/beer if Europeans were in general poor ethanol metabolizers.

 

[kasa_balavu]

Not with the recommendation to not do it, but with specifically and intentionally sowing FUD. At least in the US this is a huge problem with our "war on drugs" and more specifically the old "just say no" program. By not having real discussions on both the positive and negative aspects of drugs you drive up the risk. When I grew up we were warned incessantly about the evils of these substances....and when you found out it was full of lies and bullshit you automatically assumed it was ALL lies and bullshit. When you had your first drink, or smoked your first joint and not only lived to tell about it but had a damn good time - you were inclined to think well hell maybe all that bad stuff they tell me is also bullshit. You start to wonder is cocaine really that addictive or is it bullshit? Is heroin really that bad or did they lie about that as well? You can see where this eventually leads.
We should strive to be honest about all aspects of kava - good and bad and build trust with the community. That way when they ask our opinion they trust the answer.

I guess my use of "FUD" in that comment was a mistake since it's open to interpretation. I didn't mean to go out and lie about it. I've never done so. The truth itself sows Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt... and that's what people need to hear when they ask about mixing kava with alcohol. Mixing them can cause bad shit to happen. We won't hear about the 100 times it worked out ok, just the 1 time will be heard all over the world since kava will be blamed when you kill a pedestrian with your car or keel over and die from liver failure.

Just look at the good using FUD did for the community when it came to the topic of tudei.. resulted in masses of confused and misinformed consumers.

People are now well informed of the risks of tudei kava, the kava supply chains have been rid of adulterated kava and people no longer regularly get sick from kava bought online. People who want to consume tudei kava for medicinal purposes can now be sure they are getting it (often with lab confirmation that they're actually getting tudei and not noble). And noble kava is on its way to becoming recognised as a food internationally. If as you claim, FUD did that, then more FUD please.

In reality it was just people doing what they could to protect their health and help others avoid illness, and most importantly try and ensure that kava avoided governmental scrutiny. They did this by amplifying the concerns of the scientists, and the people of the Pacific Islands.

Just be content that you have access to kava of cultivars of your choosing now, and thank GS for that.

 

[Zaphod]

Also, does anyone else remember hearing that this is more common with people of Asian and European nationality? If I remember correctly, the darker your skin tone, the less likely you are to experience effects between alcohol and kava. This could explain why some nations even incorporate a "wash down" session after kava involving alcohol of some type and experience no negative effects. Then again, I could be totally wrong, and it might not.

Yes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_flush_reaction
"Approximately 30 to 50% of East Asians (Chinese, Japanese, and Koreans) show characteristic physiological responses to drinking alcohol that includes facial flushing, nausea, headaches and a fast heart rate."
and
"Around 90% of East Asians carry an allele of the gene coding for the enzyme alcohol dehydrogenase called ADH1B*2, which results in the alcohol dehydrogenase enzyme converting alcohol to toxic acetaldehyde more quickly than other gene variants common outside of Asia.[5][13] In about 50% of East Asians, the rapid accumulation of acetaldehyde is worsened by another gene variant, the mitochondrial ALDH2*2 allele, which results in a less functional acetaldehyde dehydrogenase enzyme, responsible for the breakdown of acetaldehyde."

 

[fait]

Yes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_flush_reaction
"Approximately 30 to 50% of East Asians (Chinese, Japanese, and Koreans) show characteristic physiological responses to drinking alcohol that includes facial flushing, nausea, headaches and a fast heart rate."
and
"Around 90% of East Asians carry an allele of the gene coding for the enzyme alcohol dehydrogenase called ADH1B*2, which results in the alcohol dehydrogenase enzyme converting alcohol to toxic acetaldehyde more quickly than other gene variants common outside of Asia.[5][13] In about 50% of East Asians, the rapid accumulation of acetaldehyde is worsened by another gene variant, the mitochondrial ALDH2*2 allele, which results in a less functional acetaldehyde dehydrogenase enzyme, responsible for the breakdown of acetaldehyde."

I'm no geneticist but this would also explain why a lot of indigenous peoples of (north) Asia and why many (North and South) American Indians have low alcohol tolerances. A bit off-topic, I apologize.

 

[Zaphod]

I'm no geneticist but this would also explain why a lot of indigenous peoples of (north) Asia and why many (North and South) American Indians have low alcohol tolerances. A bit off-topic, I apologize.

Not necessarily off topic. The same gene expression/coding (not sure the right wording) could also be the reason some folks have bad reactions to kava as well. It just isn't as well understood because relative to alcohol there are very few kava drinkers.

 

[VictoriousSpoon]

I agree that kava and alcohol together is a bad idea, and that it could be bad for kava in general if people pick up the habit. However, I don't think that running a FUD campaign is the best approach.

The truth alone is enough to warn people about combining alcohol and kava. I grew up during the "Just Say No to Drugs" era and, frankly, some of the scare tactics used to keep kids away from drugs were just ridiculous.

Facts:
- Alcohol is an addictive poison.
- The liver metabolizes both kava and alcohol. Drinking both means your liver has to work at least twice as hard, and you'll feel the effects of both for much longer.
- Both kava and alcohol are diuretics, and becoming dehydrated can make you feel awful.
- Alcohol has been shown to dissolve flavokavains and pipermethystine more than water can.
- Pipermethystine is only found in aerial parts of the kava plant.

Speculation:
- Alcohol blocks something biologically so that noble kava has wild/tudei effects.
- Kava and alcohol together synergize to cause more liver damage than alcohol alone.
- The old liver damage cases caused by shady kava extracts sold as pharmaceuticals in Europe are somehow due to them being alcohol-based extracts, rather than them being made from aerial parts of the plant.

To add to the list, I speculate that ethanol might extract a component that ordinarily has low bioavailability yielding tudei-like effects.

 

[Mo'iety]

To add to the list, I speculate that ethanol might extract a component that ordinarily has low bioavailability yielding tudei-like effects.

Ethanol definitely extracts the flavokavains (FKA and FKB) much more readily than water.[1] We don't know much about the physiology of FKB and whether it contributes to tudei-like effects, but it's definitely more prevalent in tudei than noble kava roots and studies show it to be considerably more cytotoxic than the kavalactones. So it's certainly something to avoid.

[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4218769/#!po=16.6667

 

[RevRad]

Anecdotally, I just drank 2 or 3 standard drinks worth of whiskey about 5 hours after drinking a TON of kava (had a rough day), at least 2 or 3x what I normally make, no problems whatsoever. Caucasian, never had any of those alcohol reactions I've heard people speak of without kava either. Not saying it's a smart idea but it's up to the individual to make the choice. 2 or 3 standard drinks for me is a lot, I am COMPLETELY wasted by 4 on an empty stomach, any more absolutely 100% would make me vomit regardless of kava.