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Could Kava hypothetically make N,N-DMT orally active?

L

lonnyzone

Kava Enthusiast
Title more or less says it all. Since Kava is a weak MAO-B inhibitor, could consuming a large amount of it hypothetically allow N,N-DMT to be orally active for some period of time, or is it just not a strong enough MAOI?
I understand that the stuff that they brew Ayahuasca with is a much stronger MAO-A inhibitor, so I'm pretty sure I could be totally wrong here - then again, I've also read that MAO-A and MAO-B both break down Tryptamines equally, so maybe which subset of MAOI we're dealing with isn't totally vital? Googling this didn't bring about any satisfactory results, but if any are out there that I missed, point me to them so I can run to them in shame.
 
Dr.Krunk

Dr.Krunk

Certified Quack
lonnyzone said:
Title more or less says it all. Since Kava is a weak MAO-B inhibitor, could consuming a large amount of it hypothetically allow N,N-DMT to be orally active for some period of time, or is it just not a strong enough MAOI?
I understand that the stuff that they brew Ayahuasca with is a much stronger MAO-A inhibitor, so I'm pretty sure I could be totally wrong here - then again, I've also read that MAO-A and MAO-B both break down Tryptamines equally, so maybe which subset of MAOI we're dealing with isn't totally vital? Googling this didn't bring about any satisfactory results, but if any are out there that I missed, point me to them so I can run to them in shame.
Click to expand...
I don't believe this is probably something that should necessarily be discussed on these forums. With that said @verticity would probably be able to answer your question more accurately then most.
 
L

lonnyzone

Kava Enthusiast
Dr.Krunk said:
I don't believe this is probably something that should necessarily be discussed on these forums. With that said @verticity would probably be able to answer your question more accurately then most.
Click to expand...
You're probably correct about that, I just figured I'd try. I'll delete later today or something, now that I think about it it's a question better left for other places, but I'll wait a second to see if @verticity has some insight.
 
verticity

verticity

I'm interested in things
There is evidence that kava is an MAO-B inhibitor:

https://www.thieme-connect.com/products/ejournals/abstract/10.1055/s-2007-979325

The alkaloids harmine and harmaline that are mixed with DMT in ayahuasca are mainly MAO-A inhibitors (and also have other psychoactive effects):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmaline

What is the difference between MAO-A and MAO-B? MAO-A is an enzyme that breaks down serotonin, norepinephrine and dopamine. MAO-B only breaks down dopamine.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monoamine_oxidase_B#Differences_between_MAOA_and_MAOB

DMT and other tryptamine drugs are serotonin analogs, so I would expect they are metabolized by MAO-A. So if you take an MAO-A inhibitor with them the result is that the tryptamine is broken down more slowly so that the effects last much longer. However an MAO-B inhibitor like kava would not have the same effects, because MAO-B does not break down serotonin.

In the past here I have suggested that combining kava with SSRIs might increase the risk of serotonin syndrome. But I was wrong about that, because kava only inhibits MAO-B, not MAO-A.
 
BourbonMac

BourbonMac

I like herbs
This is an old dead thread, but I will tell you from my experience in a period where I was drinking kava every night and also hitting DMT carts that it absolutely extended the trip. We're talking 80 minutes instead of 20-30. I did also tend to take some Passionflower capsules at the time which are mild MAOIs, but some nights I only used the kava to be sure, and it was clear to me that, for me at least, kava extends DMT trips by 2-3x the regular length of the trip. It's like homemade ayahuasca in a way. I'd usually drink 40g of root, sometimes 60g. Even just 20g around, it still lengthened my trip.

I don't know what the science says but I can tell anyone with total certainty that kava lengthens DMT trips. I had someone I know try this as well, and they had the same result. You do need to do quite a bit for it to work (20g extended the trip maybe 10 minutes) and I don't think it's potentiating the DMT or anything, although the only times I broke through, I'd had quite a bit of kava to drink. I was using kava and DMT almost every night from March to June last year, prior to that I'd only did it every night from June through July in 2022. So as someone with hundreds of DMT trips under their belt, I can say that at least for me, this works.

I'd never given myself the idea that it would either. I was like why are my trips lasting so damn long, then I find out kava is an MAO-B agonist and I put 2 and 2 together
 
O

Orz[EST]

Kava Enthusiast
Well, actually it was caapi tea (harmaline, harmalin, tetrahydroharmaline and harmalol) rather than DMT so it was not on topic.
 
J

Jack3

Kava Enthusiast
I can see how kava could make for a more therapeutic experience with vaporized or insnufflated DMT because the relaxation could allow greater presence and awareness without the panic.
 
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