Different effects from micronized vs. medium grind?

[kalmia_latifolia]

Hey folks,

I'm a relatively new kava drinker, and I'm interested in relaxing / euphoric effects (no interest in sedation at all). I've tried KWK's Borugu, Vulu Waka, Damu, and Loa Waka, and the latter was my clear favorite- the headiness, energy and euphoria was amazing. However, I found that I only got this effect with the Loa Waka micro- the medium grind was quite pleasant, but very well balanced. Incidentally, this is closer to how the strain was described. I'm wondering if this is a common effect of micro / medium grind differences, perhaps due to the 1) micro grind having a different cohort of kavalactones than the medium grind, 2) unequal extraction of different kavalactones during the prep of the medium grind, 3) differences in dose, 4) batch effects, or something else entirely.

I'm not trying to get krunk, and I'm still going easy on kava until I'm sure I won't have an adverse reaction, so here have been my doses:
Medium grind- 2 tablespoons, put in ~8oz fairly hot water from the tap and blended for 4 minutes in a Nutri Ninja. Strained through KWK's cotton bags.
Micro- 2 teaspoons, mixed into apple juice and drunk in one go.

I've also had really nice heady, energetic effects from 1 tbsp of Borugu medium grind and 1 tsp of the micro Loa Waka. In a separate trial, the Borugu alone was well balanced and pretty mild, no euphoria.

What do you folks think?

 

[sɥɐʞɐs]

I think you're just getting more kavalactones from the micro, since it's micro you're getting all the kavalactones, your medium grind prep was just too low of a dose and perhaps not prepped well enough to be comparable. If there's any other difference in how they affect you, it might have to do with the fact that some micros have the makas and skins(?) removed before powdering, whereas it's medium grind counter-part would still have skins(usually) and makas (actually, what will become makas) in the powder. That might very slightly alter the chemotype or affect how your stomach takes to it. More than likely though, the difference you felt is probably just a stronger quicker hit.

 

[kalmia_latifolia]

I think you're just getting more kavalactones from the micro, since it's micro you're getting all the kavalactones, your medium grind prep was just too low of a dose and perhaps not prepped well enough to be comparable. If there's any other difference in how they affect you, it might have to do with the fact that some micros have the makas and skins(?) removed before powdering, whereas it's medium grind counter-part would still have skins(usually) and makas (actually, what will become makas) in the powder. That might very slightly alter the chemotype or affect how your stomach takes to it. More than likely though, the difference you felt is probably just a stronger quicker hit.

Interesting! Assuming I can't get my extraction efficiency up, the micro might actually be a better deal (double the cost, but >3x the potency). I thought that the micro might actually be a non-random sample of the root, perhaps coming form a region of the root with a different KL profile than average. But I think you might be right, the micro just might be giving me a larger dose. Do you think that the increased risk of dermo I've read about from micro is due to people simply getting a higher dose, or something else?

We can do a little back of the envelope calculation here. Two teaspoons of micro Fiji Loa contains ~420mg kavalactones (3.5g * 12%KL). Assuming I absorbed all of those, I'd have to have a 35% extraction efficiency to get as much KL out 10g (2tbsp) of the medium grind. That seems pretty high- I saw a write up of a bunch of tests with different methods of aqueous extractions, with 40% being the highest. I'd be surprised if I'm getting much more than 20% out. So yeah, I think you're right.

 

[sɥɐʞɐs]

In general, all dried kava is more likely to produce dermopathy over fresh kava. Dosage size and frequency also play a role. Anecdotally, there are many reports of getting dermo faster or more excessively from micronized kava. Some people also seem to be more genetically predisposed to it, or perhaps their diet can have some affect, but most often, the dosage/frequency is the main factor.

 

[Zaphod]

No doubt about it in my mind. Micro hit me harder, faster, and with a much more heady buzz then even a good water extraction of the same cultivar. The only reason I switched from that to medium grind was the severe dermo I was getting. My dermo is now gone and has not returned but I am not 100% sure it was just because it was microgrind or the fact that I am pretty sure my total KL consumption is likely much reduced. I tend now to prefer my medium grind and nice building up of my krunk then the smack in the face of 3TBS of microgind....most of the time.

 

[kalmia_latifolia]

No doubt about it in my mind. Micro hit me harder, faster, and with a much more heady buzz then even a good water extraction of the same cultivar. The only reason I switched from that to medium grind was the severe dermo I was getting. My dermo is now gone and has not returned but I am not 100% sure it was just because it was microgrind or the fact that I am pretty sure my total KL consumption is likely much reduced. I tend now to prefer my medium grind and nice building up of my krunk then the smack in the face of 3TBS of microgind....most of the time.

That's interesting- I doubt I'll take more than 2 teaspoons per day of micro if I can get the nice heady buzz from that. I'd really rather not take enough kava to experience any side effects, like dermo, but I'm not sure if that moderate-to-low doses of ~420mg kavalactones would cause it (still, it's significantly higher than the 120 or 250mg KL thresholds I see in the scientific literature as considered safe for daily use).

Have you tried instant @Zaphod? It seems like it could be the optimum- concentrated & fast absorbing, but root particle (and associated water-insoluble compounds, like flavokavains) free. More expensive, sure, but money's not really an issue when it comes to health. I've ordered some m'oi instant from GHK- I'm looking forward to trying that out.

 

[Zaphod]

That's interesting- I doubt I'll take more than 2 teaspoons per day of micro if I can get the nice heady buzz from that. I'd really rather not take enough kava to experience any side effects, like dermo, but I'm not sure if that moderate-to-low doses of ~420mg kavalactones would cause it (still, it's significantly higher than the 120 or 250mg KL thresholds I see in the scientific literature as considered safe for daily use).

Have you tried instant @Zaphod? It seems like it could be the optimum- concentrated & fast absorbing, but root particle (and associated water-insoluble compounds, like flavokavains) free. More expensive, sure, but money's not really an issue when it comes to health. I've ordered some m'oi instant from GHK- I'm looking forward to trying that out.

Funny you should ask that - while I have been a daily drinker for just over 2 years, just last month was my first purchase of an instant (GHK's moi as a matter of fact). It is a different experience then my medium grind, still heady but in a different way. Hard to explain. While I am a big fan of GHK - I have to say I am not a big fan of this instant. I enjoy more of the heavier to balanced kavas. This instant seems to be all head. Just a preference thing. FYI, GHK's Mahakea is my all time go-to favorite kava. Very well balanced.

 

[kalmia_latifolia]

Nice! I'll try the Mahakea next time- so far, my best kava experiences have had little to no body sensation, but just made me happy, energetic, and mildly euphoric. That's what I'm after. Would you say the headiness for you is more 'dizzy', or euphoric?

 

[Zaphod]

Nice! I'll try the Mahakea next time- so far, my best kava experiences have had little to no body sensation, but just made me happy, energetic, and mildly euphoric. That's what I'm after. Would you say the headiness for you is more 'dizzy', or euphoric?

Some euphoria, more of a general happiness not a giddiness/laugh your ass off kind of euphoria. At higher doses it isn't really dizziness but more a vertigo like feeling. Your eyes and what you are seeing has a slight lag when you move your head and gives me a slight "imbalance" feeling, but I wouldn't call it dizzy. I would call it more of a disorientation feeling then dizzy, but that tends not to happen unless you really go deep into krunkness.
Mahakea is great because it gives me slight euphoria and good relaxation anxiety relief early and then tapers into a nice gentle chill allowing a good night sleep. Very well balanced. In general I get home from work, mix up a batch or two from 5-8pm. Sometimes I top it off with a real heavy kava for deeper sleep. Moi is much more euphoric in my opinion.

 

[kalmia_latifolia]

Some euphoria, more of a general happiness not a giddiness/laugh your ass off kind of euphoria. At higher doses it isn't really dizziness but more a vertigo like feeling. Your eyes and what you are seeing has a slight lag when you move your head and gives me a slight "imbalance" feeling, but I wouldn't call it dizzy. I would call it more of a disorientation feeling then dizzy, but that tends not to happen unless you really go deep into krunkness.
Mahakea is great because it gives me slight euphoria and good relaxation anxiety relief early and then tapers into a nice gentle chill allowing a good night sleep. Very well balanced. In general I get home from work, mix up a batch or two from 5-8pm. Sometimes I top it off with a real heavMoi is much more euphoric in my opinion.

Nice- that sounds like exactly what I'm looking for. Thanks for the feedback!