Got a call from Doctor's, I have "elevated liver function"

[The Kap'n]

ahh, thank you for that. I personally don't understand what those indicators do or what causes them, but you can rest assured someone here is figuring that out right now. It's excellent to have some hard data.

 

[Nils]

ahh, thank you for that. I personally don't understand what those indicators do or what causes them, but you can rest assured someone here is figuring that out right now. It's excellent to have some hard data.

Well, from the little research I've done so far, those two enzymes can be raised for many different reasons...but when they are both raised at the same time, it can mean that either the liver has been working in overdrive and/or has been damaged. But I also read that you can get false positives for these two enzymes being high due to "Taking some herbs and natural products, such as echinacea and valerian." Not sure if that includes kava.

 

[Deleted User01]

That post sent me running to my Medical Folder to get my last results in July. I had a total Bilirubin of .10 which is well within the range (0-.40). Your lab reports it differently but your grand total is well within the range. You have stuff on your report that mine doesn't have so I can compare the 2 results which were labeled high.

 

[ObiWan]

That look's really bad - the two Aminotransferases usually indicate liver problems.
I would follow the doctor's advice and stop drinking Kava for a month.
Phenibut and Piracetam can also cause liver damage. Let see what the next test shows.

 

[Deleted User01]

Obiwan, what readings are bad and why? His total looked pretty good but there were those 2 readings that said HIGH. I guess you are referring to them but what do they mean? I'm very curious about them because my tests don't show those 2 items and I always get a Liver Panel.

 

[kavadude]

Obiwan, what readings are bad and why? His total looked pretty good but there were those 2 readings that said HIGH. I guess you are referring to them but what do they mean? I'm very curious about them because my tests don't show those 2 items and I always get a Liver Panel.

Those are enzymes that are generally elevated in people who have alcohol related liver damage, hepatitis or other conditions. They can also be elevated temporarily and don't necessarily indicate serious damage. Are you sure they aren't on your panel, maybe abbreviated as AST and ALT?

 

[Deleted User01]

Ok, I'm trying to give Nils a reference point. My AST was 18 and the range is 0-40. My ALT was 23 and the range is 0-44. I drink booze on my non Kava days and Kava on my non booze days. Nils, do you have any old blood tests that you can compare? I always keep mine in a folder and I also key them into a spreadsheet so I can monitor them across the years.

 

[ObiWan]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspartate_transaminase
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alanine_transaminase

 

[Deleted User01]

Good info ObiWan. So assuming there are those liver enzymes and maybe a few other markers then I wonder if they can tell us what causes each to elevate. Is it as simple as saying, you drink too much (or Kava or Tylenol, etc). Or could it be something else? I guess if Nils cuts down on everything and then gets a normal test then we will have the answer. Unless he did something the day before his last test that skewed the numbers. Hey, is there a doctor in the house? (Preferably a liver specialist).

 

[Nils]

I don't have any access to my old blood tests, but I am sure they would have told me if I had AST/ALT above the normal range a year ago, when I last got blood tests. As I said earlier, the only new substances I have used since my blood test in 2012 are kava and phenibut.

That look's really bad - the two Aminotransferases usually indicate liver problems.
I would follow the doctor's advice and stop drinking Kava for a month.
Phenibut and Piracetam can also cause liver damage. Let see what the next test shows.

I've read that phenibut can cause liver damage, but not piracetam. That stuff has an LD50 higher than salt, there's even a study showing that piracetam helped dogs recover from liver problems. I use phenibut once a week, never more. It is only supposed to cause liver damage if you use it daily at a dose above 1000mg, and I typically use it just once a week at 600mg. I will continue to use it once a week until my next lab, to see if phenibut is the true culprit.

Good info ObiWan. So assuming there are those liver enzymes and maybe a few other markers then I wonder if they can tell us what causes each to elevate. Is it as simple as saying, you drink too much (or Kava or Tylenol, etc). Or could it be something else? I guess if Nils cuts down on everything and then gets a normal test then we will have the answer. Unless he did something the day before his last test that skewed the numbers. Hey, is there a doctor in the house? (Preferably a liver specialist).

As I said somewhere earlier in this thread, I had a nice big cup of kava at midnight before my doctor's appt...which was at 10AM. Maybe having kava less than 12 hours before my appt. could have raised these numbers just from the liver doing its job of removing the kava from my body?

 

[Deleted User01]

In an ideal world ..... you would fast (from Kava) for a week (or less) and get another blood test. Then you would have a quick and dirty answer. Then you can plan for the long term. Nils, I don't know how important Kava is to your overall well being so I hates to tell anyone to lay off the Kava. But you need some answers.

 

[yepimonfire]

Wakacon is fine. I've consumed quite a lot of it. Also, OP please be careful with phenibut. It's not a substance to be taken lightly and can quickly lead to dependence, once a week, maybe twice at most is All you can really be safe with.

 

[kavadude]

As I said somewhere earlier in this thread, I had a nice big cup of kava at midnight before my doctor's appt...which was at 10AM. Maybe having kava less than 12 hours before my appt. could have raised these numbers just from the liver doing its job of removing the kava from my body?

I would bet money that your liver enzymes will be fine after a month break. But whether consuming kava long term is a good idea -- well, thats between you and your doctor.

 

[infraredz]

That ALT value is above the lab's range, but the AST isn't all that high (and neither are high relative to those with hepatitis and other hepatic pathologies) relative to some with legitimate liver problems (I'm talking AST/ALT >700U/L, for perspective).

These transaminases are just enzymes (which, as some have speculated, definitely would be higher following consumption of something that does have an obvious effect on the liver (as seen through the extensive enzymatic inhibition of kava).

ALT is involved with the metabolism of Omega-3s (which if I remember correctly, you are taking BID) and anti-inflammatory drugs (eg. Ibuprofen), among other drugs. Also, and somewhat importantly, they directly responsible for metabolizing proteins to amino acids when blood glucose is low (happens even in healthy people, but more significantly in thin people or those with blood sugar issues [hypoglycemia, diabetics, etc]). This could happen if you have been eating less than usual, or had low blood sugar for the hours leading up to the test, although I'm guessing/hoping this was part of an overall fasting test. Your Albumin, Globulins, Bilirubin and total proteins are well within range but I would definitely took a break and get them tested in a week or so.

Just to put your and others' minds at ease, that panel isn't really that high (even though those transaminases are elevated). Someone with even mild liver injury would have much different LFT results, but again, might as well take a break for a week or so. I just took a break for a week... well just 'cus. That's the cool thing about kava after all.

Just as another disclaimer, nothing I said should be taken as advice; just nothing more than an anonymous bloke on the interwebs.

 

[Nils]

That ALT value is above the lab's range, but the AST isn't all that high (and neither are high relative to those with hepatitis and other hepatic pathologies) relative to some with legitimate liver problems (I'm talking AST/ALT >700U/L, for perspective).

These transaminases are just enzymes (which, as some have speculated, definitely would be higher following consumption of something that does have an obvious effect on the liver (as seen through the extensive enzymatic inhibition of kava).

ALT is involved with the metabolism of Omega-3s (which if I remember correctly, you are taking BID) and anti-inflammatory drugs (eg. Ibuprofen), among other drugs. Also, and somewhat importantly, they directly responsible for metabolizing proteins to amino acids when blood glucose is low (happens even in healthy people, but more significantly in thin people or those with blood sugar issues [hypoglycemia, diabetics, etc]). This could happen if you have been eating less than usual, or had low blood sugar for the hours leading up to the test, although I'm guessing/hoping this was part of an overall fasting test. Your Albumin, Globulins, Bilirubin and total proteins are well within range but I would definitely took a break and get them tested in a week or so.

Just to put your and others' minds at ease, that panel isn't really that high (even though those transaminases are elevated). Someone with even mild liver injury would have much different LFT results, but again, might as well take a break for a week or so. I just took a break for a week... well just 'cus. That's the cool thing about kava after all.

Just as another disclaimer, nothing I said should be taken as advice; just nothing more than an anonymous bloke on the interwebs.

Thank you for all this info sir! I knew that if I had real liver damage, they probably wouldn't have just said "stop taking kava and get tested in a month".

Maybe if my levels are all within the normal range next month, I'll drink two big cups of kava after, then schedule an appointment for 5 days later. I enjoy kava so I sure hope those levels were just temporarily elevated since I had drank kava the night before.

 

[infraredz]

Honestly, it seems to me that they should go down within a week or so- I'm not quite sure why they would make you wait so long.

I would be willing to be that they were just elevated (very slightly) because of having within 8hrs of taking the test. Even throughout the day, these transaminases fluctuate under normal circumstances (even without taking anything).

 

[Nils]

Good news guys. My liver functions are all well within the normal range after a month without kava. But in addition, I looked closely at my medical records. I noticed that the day I was tested for high liver enzymes, my heart rate was lower than it usually is (70~ instead of 80-90), even when I had been drinking caffeinated tea! As I said earlier in the thread, I had drank kava at midnight before my 10AM doctor's appointment the next day. I know that kava must lower my heart rate from how calm it makes me, so I would say that my high liver function was caused by the kava still being removed from my system at the time of the appointment. If my doctor says its okay, I'm going to stick to drinking kava strictly once a week now though, just in case.

 

[yepimonfire]

I think something else is going on. I went apeshit with kava and had my liver enzymes tested and they came back normal. By ape shit i mean there were nights when i consumed as much as 20 tbsp. Also, kava doesn't lower your heart rate, i know this because i got totally krunk one night and took my blood pressure and heartrate while wasted, it was actually higher than normal, probably due to the norepinephrine re-uptake inhibition of kavain.

 

[Kavarelaxer]

...I would say that my high liver function was caused by the kava still being removed from my system at the time of the appointment. If my doctor says its okay, I'm going to stick to drinking kava strictly once a week now though, just in case.

I would say you were worrying for nothing as many active kavalactones have half lives of approximately 9 hours, so your liver was still busy working on them when the test was done. You can take Milk Thistle after drinking kava or doing other liver hitting substances as a precaution. Personally I take it daily as I drink kava every day, expect when the temptation to drink quality beer rises too high

 

[kavalover]

I think I posted this before on the old forums, but I used to get liver tests often. Each time, when drinking kava regularly, my liver function tests would come back with elevated alt/ast overall being indicative of liver damage. However, after 2 - 3 weeks without kava, my liver tests would always go back to normal ranges. Each and every time. My doctor said my tests after a week or so of regular kava intake is similar to a liver exam after a night of heavy drinking - but he was never worried about me as my ranges were always totally normal after stopping kava or drinking in relative moderation. He eventually said he wasn't concerned with continuing my liver tests anymore I've only had one since then, all perfectly normal levels.

After 4 years of this, no liver damage. Indications of liver issues and actual liver issues are certainly two different things.