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JKE

Kava Curious
Yup, alcohol can cause permanent damage in the form of Korsakoff psychosis; I forgot about that one. I am more skeptical of the claims about cocaine and meth causing brain damage, but they are obviously very dangerous for other reasons.

About MJ: I didn't say definitively that it does not cause brain damage. I said the studies claiming to show that are questionable and that I am skeptical of them, because it is not known if the brain changes observed are reversible adaptations. (I would assume they are reversible, in the absence of evidence they are not)

For what it's worth, even though I live in Colorado, I don't personally partake of the Wacky Weed, because of mental health problems it can cause during use: anxiety, memory loss, depression, amotivation, etc... but I did vote to legalize it because I believe it is less harmful than alcohol.
By brain damage I mean literally parts of the brain see physical damage (shrinkage or otherwise). It's my understanding that alcohol, cocaine, and meth all cause it. I could be wrong (and am too lazy to google it :p ). The language at the end of the statement "The study only showed subtle differences between users and non-users brains, which are not actually physical damage" is what I was referring to. Thanks for clarifying; your idea that they could be reversible adaptations would be great for former users if it was true. I commend you for abstaining from MJ. Even if it doesn't cause brain damage, it's certainly produces a pungent odor, and the pervasive use probably influences high school kids to use it. Aside from the potential side effects you mentioned, studies have shown some pretty serious negative effects for younger people that use it, namely reduced IQ. I'm unsure of what I would vote on that in my state, I think that the drug problem in the U.S. doesn't need to be exacerbated any further, and that alcohol and cigarettes should be made illegal (and I'd most likely vote that weed should be kept illegal). The problem is that it's very difficult to stop people from using them, and the current laws are more harmful than helpful to users, so there's no way to really win there.
 

verticity

I'm interested in things
By brain damage I mean literally parts of the brain see physical damage (shrinkage or otherwise). It's my understanding that alcohol, cocaine, and meth all cause it. I could be wrong (and am too lazy to google it :p ). The language at the end of the statement "The study only showed subtle differences between users and non-users brains, which are not actually physical damage" is what I was referring to. Thanks for clarifying; your idea that they could be reversible adaptations would be great for former users if it was true. I commend you for abstaining from MJ. Even if it doesn't cause brain damage, it's certainly produces a pungent odor, and the pervasive use probably influences high school kids to use it. Aside from the potential side effects you mentioned, studies have shown some pretty serious negative effects for younger people that use it, namely reduced IQ. I'm unsure of what I would vote on that in my state, I think that the drug problem in the U.S. doesn't need to be exacerbated any further, and that alcohol and cigarettes should be made illegal (and I'd most likely vote that weed should be kept illegal). The problem is that it's very difficult to stop people from using them, and the current laws are more harmful than helpful to users, so there's no way to really win there.
Making alcohol illegal has been done... it didn't turn out too well since anyone can make it in their bathtub...

Yeah, my "physical damage" comment was by way of contrast with the Olney's lesions caused by PCP, ectc., which are literally lesions in the brain tissue, as opposed to brain regions growing or shrinking...
 

verticity

I'm interested in things
The thing is, a region of the brain growing or shrinking I would not necessarily call "damage". For example learning to play the piano actually causes measurable changes in the brain, but no one would think of that as damage. (Apparently this also applies to cats who learn piano, as the video in that article suggests)
 
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ThePiper

Kava Lover
Sounds like some kava would help your worries LOL. But seriously youve got nothing to worry about as far as kava harming your brain. It may have some minor stresses on the body but the brain should be ok. As a rule the risk of botanical substances is exaggerated, unless you are talking about true poisons like belladona and hemlock lol. I wouldn't be surprised if kava actually protected the brain from stress related damage similarly to how cannabis does. Oh looky here it is neuroprotective:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4498339/

One of the magical things about kava is that it has some of the same effects as a pharm GABA agonist (benzodiazepines) without the glaring dangers. Benzos do cause brain damage so I could see the concern, but it seems that kava has a complex action that may produce similar results to Benzos without the same level of risk, I.e, deadly withdrawals.

It eould be interesting to study the effects kava has on learning while under the influence. I would suspect high amounts would temporarily lower ability to learn but for anxious or depressed individuals, low amounts may actually increase learning abilities (by reducing the existing problems) That would be a great study.

Also, Alcohol is one of the mostfucky of them all *sips rum and coke* because it is a solvent and if I understand correctly it permeates directly into the brain. solvent in the blood/brain = bad news, and literally damaging.
 
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EQ

Atman
Aside from the potential side effects you mentioned, studies have shown some pretty serious negative effects for younger people that use it, namely reduced IQ. I'm unsure of what I would vote on that in my state, I think that the drug problem in the U.S. doesn't need to be exacerbated any further, and that alcohol and cigarettes should be made illegal (and I'd most likely vote that weed should be kept illegal). The problem is that it's very difficult to stop people from using them, and the current laws are more harmful than helpful to users, so there's no way to really win there.
This post I find disagreeable in so many ways. First alcohol and cigarettes should be illegal? All drugs should be illegal? The fact is it is natural to indulge shifts in consciousness. In fact I never want to be in a room with somebody who has never taken a drug. There is a lot of problems with those people. A lack of exploring this world? this life? your mind? reality?. Just blindly listen to the leaders we have without question? The real problem lies in "drugs are cool" more than anything. So much beautiful art and culture has derived from drugs. To just shut that down. To stay in this sober state, this worker state, it is a horrifying thought to think that is what was meant. Kids spin in circles to get dizzy, and with age that pleasure becomes unsatisfying.
And life isn't about stability, safety, those are cultural values. It's about learning. Shit if it wasn't for drugs I probably would have taken my life long ago. If it wasn't for being mentally crushed by drugs and recovering from it I wouldn't know anything about who I am. The thought of my confused teenage self remaining is just disgusting. My intelligence, awareness, appreciation, joy, creativity has increased dramatically. Psychoactive substances in nature aren't here out of the contradictory big bang. To propose we stay safe, sober, and live to maintain personal longevity produces an unsatisfied understanding of this world that is either repressed with constant faith of religion, and other such escapism or it is satisfied. I don't care how somebody chooses to live, but there are people who want to come to terms through experience. The idea of locking people away among murderers for picking mushrooms off the ground, and seeing it as justice, is a result of a cultural psychoses.

I don't understand why there is so much faith in the lies. Your US government hates you. We are playing a game with con artists and sociopaths.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra

I won't repress my hatred of this predicament, and dehumanize myself to be polite. The real problems lie within the constructs of societies that we're founded off the mass kidnapping, rape, and cultural destruction of natives ( Canadian history ), that place value on the possession of things more than love. We're headed towards a desert so we can produce convenience, and you want to take away my ability to get drunk? Then to create a safe place make ropes, razors, and jumping illegal. The starving artist within me just can't accept. Sorry if anything seemed harsh. I hate nobody just ideas. Other viewpoints need to be heard though the sad thing with freedom of speech is consideration is rare.

I think a lot of people know things are beyond messed up by now.
We will see by thumb ups or my out-casting I suppose. I spent too much time on this to delete it.
 

Ligermeat

Warm and Fuzzeh!
This post I find disagreeable in so many ways. First alcohol and cigarettes should be illegal? All drugs should be illegal? The fact is it is natural to indulge shifts in consciousness. In fact I never want to be in a room with somebody who has never taken a drug. There is a lot of problems with those people. A lack of exploring this world? this life? your mind? reality?. Just blindly listen to the leaders we have without question? The real problem lies in "drugs are cool" more than anything. So much beautiful art and culture has derived from drugs. To just shut that down. To stay in this sober state, this worker state, it is a horrifying thought to think that is what was meant. Kids spin in circles to get dizzy, and with age that pleasure becomes unsatisfying.
And life isn't about stability, safety, those are cultural values. It's about learning. Shit if it wasn't for drugs I probably would have taken my life long ago. If it wasn't for being mentally crushed by drugs and recovering from it I wouldn't know anything about who I am. The thought of my confused teenage self remaining is just disgusting. My intelligence, awareness, appreciation, joy, creativity has increased dramatically. Psychoactive substances in nature aren't here out of the contradictory big bang. To propose we stay safe, sober, and live to maintain personal longevity produces an unsatisfied understanding of this world that is either repressed with constant faith of religion, and other such escapism or it is satisfied. I don't care how somebody chooses to live, but there are people who want to come to terms through experience. The idea of locking people away among murderers for picking mushrooms off the ground, and seeing it as justice, is a result of a cultural psychoses.

I don't understand why there is so much faith in the lies. Your US government hates you. We are playing a game with con artists and sociopaths.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra

I won't repress my hatred of this predicament, and dehumanize myself to be polite. The real problems lie within the constructs of societies that we're founded off the mass kidnapping, rape, and cultural destruction of natives ( Canadian history ), that place value on the possession of things more than love. We're headed towards a desert so we can produce convenience, and you want to take away my ability to get drunk? Then to create a safe place make ropes, razors, and jumping illegal. The starving artist within me just can't accept. Sorry if anything seemed harsh. I hate nobody just ideas. Other viewpoints need to be heard though the sad thing with freedom of speech is consideration is rare.

I think a lot of people know things are beyond messed up by now.
We will see by thumb ups or my out-casting I suppose. I spent too much time on this to delete it.


Respect.
 
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JKE

Kava Curious
This post I find disagreeable in so many ways. First alcohol and cigarettes should be illegal? All drugs should be illegal? The fact is it is natural to indulge shifts in consciousness. In fact I never want to be in a room with somebody who has never taken a drug. There is a lot of problems with those people. A lack of exploring this world? this life? your mind? reality?. Just blindly listen to the leaders we have without question? The real problem lies in "drugs are cool" more than anything. So much beautiful art and culture has derived from drugs. To just shut that down. To stay in this sober state, this worker state, it is a horrifying thought to think that is what was meant. Kids spin in circles to get dizzy, and with age that pleasure becomes unsatisfying.
And life isn't about stability, safety, those are cultural values. It's about learning. Shit if it wasn't for drugs I probably would have taken my life long ago. If it wasn't for being mentally crushed by drugs and recovering from it I wouldn't know anything about who I am. The thought of my confused teenage self remaining is just disgusting. My intelligence, awareness, appreciation, joy, creativity has increased dramatically. Psychoactive substances in nature aren't here out of the contradictory big bang. To propose we stay safe, sober, and live to maintain personal longevity produces an unsatisfied understanding of this world that is either repressed with constant faith of religion, and other such escapism or it is satisfied. I don't care how somebody chooses to live, but there are people who want to come to terms through experience. The idea of locking people away among murderers for picking mushrooms off the ground, and seeing it as justice, is a result of a cultural psychoses.

I don't understand why there is so much faith in the lies. Your US government hates you. We are playing a game with con artists and sociopaths.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra

I won't repress my hatred of this predicament, and dehumanize myself to be polite. The real problems lie within the constructs of societies that we're founded off the mass kidnapping, rape, and cultural destruction of natives ( Canadian history ), that place value on the possession of things more than love. We're headed towards a desert so we can produce convenience, and you want to take away my ability to get drunk? Then to create a safe place make ropes, razors, and jumping illegal. The starving artist within me just can't accept. Sorry if anything seemed harsh. I hate nobody just ideas. Other viewpoints need to be heard though the sad thing with freedom of speech is consideration is rare.

I think a lot of people know things are beyond messed up by now.
We will see by thumb ups or my out-casting I suppose. I spent too much time on this to delete it.
When you are talking about policies for a government with 300 million+ constituents, it is extremely risky to make the majority of drugs legal. It's not necessarily that I think they're all 100% bad, and I would definitely say the drug scheduling/sentencing structure is in dire need of a overhaul. It's just that some people can use drugs responsibly, while most cannot. Also, many drugs such as nicotine and alcohol cause enough deaths (or have the potential to) to be made illegal. Which is why on a policy basis, both should be made illegal. But, I do think that there should be some way to legally allow people who can use high-risk drugs responsibly to use them. The main problem with that is how you'd make that work.

My family has a significant history of drug abuse, and so has the town I grew up in. I've seen drug addiction destroy a lot of people's lives. Not everyone comes away from it in good shape. This is mainly why I do not support the legalization of the vast majority of drugs. Brain damage and other health risks are also critical reasons for that. I do agree with you that people who are not violent drug offenders should absolutely not be put away in prison alongside murderers. I would say that traffickers of drugs should be put in jail, but I'm unsure of what kind of sentencing structure would be needed. It's just not acceptable for citizens to be trafficking any illegal drug in my opinion because drugs in the wrong hands = calamity. You have to look at it from a governing perspective.

I get what you mean, living only to create convenience and never to explore and express yourself through whatever means you see fit (as long as you don't hurt others) is a life of slavery (or seems like it... surrounding yourself with people you love really helps regardless of the circumstances). It's a life of repression of the mind. I would argue that you don't have to do drugs to have that expression though, and you could spare yourself from a lot of mental turmoil by staying away from drugs. In terms of using drugs for personal exploration and expression, it's really a decision someone has to reach on their own, and people drumming it up makes younger people want to use them, which is not good at all. Younger people are not mature enough to make that kind of decision (generally speaking, but I'm pretty confident in saying that) and are usually harmed by drugs more than adults are (brain damage and trauma are both worse for younger people generally because they are not as mature as adults). There's also the problem of people chasing spiritual experiences through drugs or resorting to drugs anytime they feel bad. You can really get seriously hurt with both of those habits, regardless of the drug (mushrooms are probably an exception to this, as there's clear evidence supporting their therapeutic use and ability to increase connection of the networks in the brain, but they can cause some pretty seriously traumatic experiences if you're not responsible).

"Psychoactive substances in nature aren't here out of the contradictory big bang", what do you mean by "contradictory", and what is your evidence for that? This may be your understanding of it, but I don't feel like that's scientifically supported. Life is extremely complicated, and to dismiss the idea that certain substances are coincidentally psychoactive, is very bold, and goes against all the evidence I've seen/heard. I don't know of any studies that particularly target the question of why certain substances are psychoactive, but I've never heard of any that said "certain substances were specifically 'made' so that particular animals like humans could get a buzz". However, I would like a scientific explanation as to why there are cannabinoid and opiate receptors in the brain. I'd say there's a lot more info about the evolutionary side of this topic than we currently know.

"Make ropes, razors, and jumping illegal", this is almost a straw-man logical fallacy; if you directly assumed I'd support that, it would be that fallacy. You took my argument far out of the parameters it was set in. Just pointing that out.

About the government specifically, I do not think that saying "the U.S. government hates its people" creates a well-founded argument. People are very trigger-happy about calling conspiracy on governments, especially the U.S., without real evidence to support it. Sure, the U.S. government does some pretty ballsy things like MKULTRA, but to say the entirety of the government hates its people is pretty ridiculous. That's a sweeping generalization on a massive scale. If the government hated us, they'd probably make our lives much more miserable. Instead, we have one of the best standards of living in the entire world, and the government, with all its flaws, supports that (if they didn't, we wouldn't have it).

About your experiences with drugs that broke you down and encouraged you to build yourself back up, in my personal opinion, I'd say that probably wasn't entirely necessary. It's very common for teenage boys to go through a tremendous amount of personal conflict and turmoil and turn to drug abuse. When you say you probably would have taken your life, I'd say that if you were taking drugs at the time you were considering doing that, the drugs were probably weakening you mentally. But of course, I can't speak to your experience. My main point there is, other than that drugs trash your judgment even when you're sober because you're chasing a good feeling of some kind (or spirituality), relying on drugs to bring you out of a slump makes it harder for you to believe and trust yourself. It's hard to stand on your own and lead a happy life when you have to use a drug to do it.

Sorry if this jumped around or seemed harsh. I just replied to topics of your post as I thought about them and didn't feel the need to sugar coat anything. Know that my views come totally from combining what I've seen/heard/experienced personally, and my looking at the situation objectively and from the perspective of a government. They're not regurgitations of the ideas of any political party.

I appreciate your thoughtful reply.
 

EQ

Atman
When you are talking about policies for a government with 300 million+ constituents, it is extremely risky to make the majority of drugs legal. It's not necessarily that I think they're all 100% bad, and I would definitely say the drug scheduling/sentencing structure is in dire need of a overhaul. It's just that some people can use drugs responsibly, while most cannot. Also, many drugs such as nicotine and alcohol cause enough deaths (or have the potential to) to be made illegal. Which is why on a policy basis, both should be made illegal. But, I do think that there should be some way to legally allow people who can use high-risk drugs responsibly to use them. The main problem with that is how you'd make that work.

My family has a significant history of drug abuse, and so has the town I grew up in. I've seen drug addiction destroy a lot of people's lives. Not everyone comes away from it in good shape. This is mainly why I do not support the legalization of the vast majority of drugs. Brain damage and other health risks are also critical reasons for that. I do agree with you that people who are not violent drug offenders should absolutely not be put away in prison alongside murderers. I would say that traffickers of drugs should be put in jail, but I'm unsure of what kind of sentencing structure would be needed. It's just not acceptable for citizens to be trafficking any illegal drug in my opinion because drugs in the wrong hands = calamity. You have to look at it from a governing perspective.

I get what you mean, living only to create convenience and never to explore and express yourself through whatever means you see fit (as long as you don't hurt others) is a life of slavery (or seems like it... surrounding yourself with people you love really helps regardless of the circumstances). It's a life of repression of the mind. I would argue that you don't have to do drugs to have that expression though, and you could spare yourself from a lot of mental turmoil by staying away from drugs. In terms of using drugs for personal exploration and expression, it's really a decision someone has to reach on their own, and people drumming it up makes younger people want to use them, which is not good at all. Younger people are not mature enough to make that kind of decision (generally speaking, but I'm pretty confident in saying that) and are usually harmed by drugs more than adults are (brain damage and trauma are both worse for younger people generally because they are not as mature as adults). There's also the problem of people chasing spiritual experiences through drugs or resorting to drugs anytime they feel bad. You can really get seriously hurt with both of those habits, regardless of the drug (mushrooms are probably an exception to this, as there's clear evidence supporting their therapeutic use and ability to increase connection of the networks in the brain, but they can cause some pretty seriously traumatic experiences if you're not responsible).

"Psychoactive substances in nature aren't here out of the contradictory big bang", what do you mean by "contradictory", and what is your evidence for that? This may be your understanding of it, but I don't feel like that's scientifically supported. Life is extremely complicated, and to dismiss the idea that certain substances are coincidentally psychoactive, is very bold, and goes against all the evidence I've seen/heard. I don't know of any studies that particularly target the question of why certain substances are psychoactive, but I've never heard of any that said "certain substances were specifically 'made' so that particular animals like humans could get a buzz". However, I would like a scientific explanation as to why there are cannabinoid and opiate receptors in the brain. I'd say there's a lot more info about the evolutionary side of this topic than we currently know.


About the government specifically, I do not think that saying "the U.S. government hates its people" creates a well-founded argument. People are very trigger-happy about calling conspiracy on governments, especially the U.S., without real evidence to support it. Sure, the U.S. government does some pretty ballsy things like MKULTRA, but to say the entirety of the government hates its people is pretty ridiculous. That's a sweeping generalization on a massive scale. If the government hated us, they'd probably make our lives much more miserable. Instead, we have one of the best standards of living in the entire world, and the government, with all its flaws, supports that (if they didn't, we wouldn't have it).

About your experiences with drugs that broke you down and encouraged you to build yourself back up, in my personal opinion, I'd say that probably wasn't entirely necessary. It's very common for teenage boys to go through a tremendous amount of personal conflict and turmoil and turn to drug abuse. When you say you probably would have taken your life, I'd say that if you were taking drugs at the time you were considering doing that, the drugs were probably weakening you mentally. But of course, I can't speak to your experience. My main point there is, other than that drugs trash your judgment even when you're sober because you're chasing a good feeling of some kind (or spirituality), relying on drugs to bring you out of a slump makes it harder for you to believe and trust yourself. It's hard to stand on your own and lead a happy life when you have to use a drug to do it.

Sorry if this jumped around or seemed harsh. I just replied to topics of your post as I thought about them and didn't feel the need to sugar coat anything. Know that my views come totally from combining what I've seen/heard/experienced personally, and my looking at the situation objectively and from the perspective of a government. They're not regurgitations of the ideas of any political party.

I appreciate your thoughtful reply.
You choose what you want.
 

ThePiper

Kava Lover
I'd like to see some evidence supporting your claim that the majority of people who use drugs cannot do so responsibly, becasue everything I've heard suggests the opposite, that it is actually a minority of people that mess things up for the whole society. If what you said was true at least half of the US population would be chronic potheads.

You have to realize that drugs are a necessary part of human existence. Not only do they hold incredible potential for improving quality of life and teaching us about ourselves, they also open up channels of creativity that are unmatched. Even the most sober person has their "Drug of choice" and in many times it ends up being worse than a lot of substances (bigotry, ego-masturbating, food, sex addicitons etc) not to mention that the entire brain functions off of a complex system of drugs. As the saying goes, you don't do drugs, you ARE drugs. cheese has a psychoactive effect, as does green tea, sugar, ginseng, chocolate, you name it. And if you think they are incongruent check out some of the side effects you can get from abusing any one of those. Meat is certainly psychoactive too, if you are a vegetarian you quickly realize that it creates a sort of high. We need to research pheromones more but there is preliminary info to suggest that we are often "under the influence" of pheromones. And what about the most dangerous drug of all, LOVE? wowzers, talk about a blast of delicious neurotransmitters! Norepinephrine and Dopamine,(Cocaine) Oxytocin (MDMA) are just a few of the chemicals that falling in love releases to create massive euphoria and impaired judgement for weeks at a time.

One last thing: You're on a kava forum, so surely you have respect for at least a small number of psychoactives, right?
 

JKE

Kava Curious
I'd like to see some evidence supporting your claim that the majority of people who use drugs cannot do so responsibly, becasue everything I've heard suggests the opposite, that it is actually a minority of people that mess things up for the whole society. If what you said was true at least half of the US population would be chronic potheads.

You have to realize that drugs are a necessary part of human existence. Not only do they hold incredible potential for improving quality of life and teaching us about ourselves, they also open up channels of creativity that are unmatched. Even the most sober person has their "Drug of choice" and in many times it ends up being worse than a lot of substances (bigotry, ego-masturbating, food, sex addicitons etc) not to mention that the entire brain functions off of a complex system of drugs. As the saying goes, you don't do drugs, you ARE drugs. cheese has a psychoactive effect, as does green tea, sugar, ginseng, chocolate, you name it. And if you think they are incongruent check out some of the side effects you can get from abusing any one of those. Meat is certainly psychoactive too, if you are a vegetarian you quickly realize that it creates a sort of high. We need to research pheromones more but there is preliminary info to suggest that we are often "under the influence" of pheromones. And what about the most dangerous drug of all, LOVE? wowzers, talk about a blast of delicious neurotransmitters! Norepinephrine and Dopamine,(Cocaine) Oxytocin (MDMA) are just a few of the chemicals that falling in love releases to create massive euphoria and impaired judgement for weeks at a time.

One last thing: You're on a kava forum, so surely you have respect for at least a small number of psychoactives, right?
Why would half the US population have to be chronic potheads if what I said was true? There are a very large number of drug addicts and people who have caused negative experiences for themselves and others via drugs. With powerful drugs, there's just far too much risk in letting everyone do whatever they want. You have to be as realistic as possible when you're making policies as a government (not saying they always are, but it's an aim). You also have to realize that teenagers are very impressionable and curious, and as such, they will venture in to the world of drugs without caring about the risks. For evidence that most people can't/don't do drugs responsibly, see the number of people who are addicted to drugs, the number of alcohol and nicotine-related deaths, the number of people who smoke MJ in the adolescent and young adult years (addiction to MJ and memory/IQ problems are a very notable risk during those ages, whereas they are not nearly as bad as one gets past those ages), the number of people that go to the hospital for because of drugs, etc.. It's common knowledge that drugs cause lots of problems.

Drugs are not a necessary part of human existence. You don't need illicit drugs to survive. I agree with you about creativity on a subjective basis, but I've seen research studies that stated drugs don't really make you more creative.

"Even the most sober person has their 'drug of choice' and in many times it ends up being worse than a lot of substances (bigotry, ego-masturbating, food, sex addicitons etc) not to mention that the entire brain functions off of a complex system of drugs." Firstly, your statement relies on an assumption that the most sober person has their "drug of choice", which may not always be true. Secondly, food and sex addictions are certainly healthier for the person to be addicted to than many substances like cocaine, meth, alcohol, or heroin (on a basis of safety). Why the emphasis on sex addictions by the way? I've never heard anyone really argue about it and I am uninformed in that regard. About bigotry and "ego-masturbating", you can't be addicted to bigotry, and "ego-masturbating" sounds like endlessly chasing and worshipping material things over loved ones/self-expression etc., which is not bad for one's safety; it's probably actually good for that. It's not good to shirk loved ones or self-expression, but it typically doesn't hurt others or the person in question. Also, some people just don't like to get close to anyone or feel the need to express themselves. I think people have a tendency to accuse people who want a great career of being heartless psychopaths, which couldn't be farther from the truth. I'd say most just want to be financially healthy and love nice things. There's nothing wrong with that. You can't really tell someone they loving high-quality items is immoral.

"You don't do drugs, you ARE drugs", this is a pretty pedantic expression that I've heard a few times. "Drugs" in regards to our discussion refer to the illicit ones that are on the scheduled substance list, not food and normal brain chemicals. "If you are a vegetarian. you quickly realize that meat creates a sort of high". That's really interesting, I've never heard that before. I'm not surprised. Chocolate can do that IMO.

About love and the release of neurotransmitters that it is characterized by, I'm doubt you mean to suggest that norepinephrine and dopamine = cocaine and that oxytocin = MDMA. But yes, those drugs do release those neurotransmitters, but cocaine is known to cause brain damage, and MDMA is known to deplete serotonin and worsen depression and memory. Love does not do those things. The point is that many of the drugs on the scheduled substances list are dangerous. You cannot expect to do a very powerful drug and not get some sort of long-term negative effect. Believing so is to be in denial (but this really depends on the drug, there are some that don't have the potential to cause negative effects other than psychological trauma). The whole point is that many drugs have great potential to do great damage, and need to be kept away from people so they don't get themselves hurt or hurt others. It's all about keeping people safe, that's why governments exist.

Yes, I do respect at least a small number of psychoactives. I won't talk much about illegal ones specifically, but kava is a "drug" in particular that is very safe to use. I respect kava because of how effective it is at allowing me an emotional/mental reset without being harmful or addictive (I'm not sure I could ever be addicted to a drink with that kind of taste, :sour:).
 
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dino9832

Kava Enthusiast
It helps to know that drugs fall under different "schedules" or classifications by the DEA. Some are more addictive, some have no medical value (according to the DEA.)
Ironically, marijuana is STILL a schedule 1 drug. Although, there's work being done to change it's status. And fast food, which is extremely addictive, has a HIGH potential for abuse, and is a general health hazard, is not a controlled substance..lol.

Either way, I get randomly drug tested at work because my company does work on government projects sometimes. Instead of determining who does or doesn't work on the government projects, they just test us all!

drug_schedule1.gif
drug_schedules.gif
 

ThePiper

Kava Lover
If you think about the number of addicts is high, yo have to compare it to the number of users for contrast. I'm pretty sure the statistic is that over 50% of 12th graders have used marijuana. and yet what percentage are actually abusers? No where remotely close to that amount. That's what I mean by my statement. The problems of drug addition are being studied by psychologists and the consensus thus far is that addiction is the result of maladaptation to one's environment. In other words, anyone CAN be a drug addict if they do not have their needs met or do not know how to get their needs met. So rather than spending billions on keeping people from following their instincts, why not focus on solving the ROOT of the problem. In my opinion the public school systems are responsible for a good part of this problem. Because if we can do this, we will have many drug users, but we will have very very few addicts/abusers. THe more we focus on the drug war, the more lives will be ruined and families torn apart by caging human beings. Just take a seond and think about how many productive members of society are currently forced to live in a cage right now as we speak because of our ignorance as a society in villainizing the people that WE as a society have failed.

Illicit drugs? By that you mean drugs that the ruling class has deemed a threat to their authority? If kava was historically used by, say, the chinese or blacks, it would most likely be illegal too.

Is it really fair to say that we can be sure kava is without a doubt safer than marijuana? I know that kava is more likely to trigger a fatal combination than MJ. I know that for my psychology, kava is more positive. However I am just a kava lover with anxiety. I think both should be legal.

Edit: See, Dino just simplified my last post with this fast food thing. If you think the fast food industry isn't capitalizing on food-addiction technology you are kidding yourself.
 

JKE

Kava Curious
If you think about the number of addicts is high, yo have to compare it to the number of users for contrast. I'm pretty sure the statistic is that over 50% of 12th graders have used marijuana. and yet what percentage are actually abusers? No where remotely close to that amount. That's what I mean by my statement. The problems of drug addition are being studied by psychologists and the consensus thus far is that addiction is the result of maladaptation to one's environment. In other words, anyone CAN be a drug addict if they do not have their needs met or do not know how to get their needs met. So rather than spending billions on keeping people from following their instincts, why not focus on solving the ROOT of the problem. In my opinion the public school systems are responsible for a good part of this problem. Because if we can do this, we will have many drug users, but we will have very very few addicts/abusers. THe more we focus on the drug war, the more lives will be ruined and families torn apart by caging human beings. Just take a seond and think about how many productive members of society are currently forced to live in a cage right now as we speak because of our ignorance as a society in villainizing the people that WE as a society have failed.

Illicit drugs? By that you mean drugs that the ruling class has deemed a threat to their authority? If kava was historically used by, say, the chinese or blacks, it would most likely be illegal too.

Is it really fair to say that we can be sure kava is without a doubt safer than marijuana? I know that kava is more likely to trigger a fatal combination than MJ. I know that for my psychology, kava is more positive. However I am just a kava lover with anxiety. I think both should be legal.

Edit: See, Dino just simplified my last post with this fast food thing. If you think the fast food industry isn't capitalizing on food-addiction technology you are kidding yourself.
I'll start from the bottom up. I didn't say I didn't think the fast food industry was capitalizing on food-addiction; I said being addicted to food is generally healthier than being addicted to drugs.

No, we cannot say without a doubt that kava is safer than marijuana because there aren't enough studies done on the topic to prove it. We can say, however, that based on the fact that kava has been used all throughout the world for thousands of years just like MJ, the reason why it's not illegal is because it has a lower risk of harm and is not addictive (although marijuana addiction symptoms are typically only found in younger people), and is most likely safer. You could say MJ is illegal because of racial issues, but it's very hard to prove that beyond a doubt. On kava being more likely to trigger a "fatal combination" than marijuana, are these substances illegal or legal, and if they're legal (e.g., food), which ones? I'm asking because I don't want to drink kava and eat something and have a bad reaction, lol. I think that because kava has a low risk of harm, is not addictive, is more often used for therapeutic purposes rather than recreational, and is unlikely to be seen as "the cool thing to do", it should stay legal, and MJ should be kept illegal because it does not meet those criteria.

On illicit drugs being unfairly deemed a threat to the authority of a ruling class, I'd like to start by saying that officials are elected by the people to protect the people. If you don't like what these officials do in office in terms of how they handle drug scheduling, stop voting for the ones who are messing up. If you REALLY don't like what these officials are doing, start a movement and make a societal change. Take a stand like MLK and other activists. Otherwise your problem will not be solved until someone does it, or until leaders somehow get convinced of your view over time. About kava being illegal if black people or Chinese people used it, I don't doubt it, sadly.

About kids in high school that smoked weed but aren't actually "abusers", it's my understanding that people, especially high school kids, use weed to get a buzz, and therefore are abusing it. Addiction is a different story. People would have to report that they are addicted to a hospital for that to reach any statistics that you and I would see. People are very unlikely to do that. And there aren't really any marijuana addiction clinics because that's mostly a problem for younger people who wouldn't mention it regardless, and can usually bare the withdrawal symptoms when they do experience them. That doesn't mean the addiction should be overlooked though, because the real danger is in the addiction itself rather than the withdrawal symptoms. But, to the point, if there were such clinics, there would be better statistics on how many people become addicted to it.

About psychologists studying drug addiction, maladaptation to environment? You mean if a person is having trouble adapting to their environment in terms of "getting their needs met", they are more likely to become addicted to a drug..? I'm not sure if I understand that correctly. In any case, you must separate what you read from non-mainstream science websites from mainstream websites because the non-mainstream ones are often inaccurate in ways, such as stating that most psychologists researching drug addiction think that it's because of maladaptation to environment. I read Science Daily among other scientific websites often, and I've never seen that idea.

Drug abuse is not instinctual. It's learned. If you were to imagine humans in the wild before societies existed, you would not expect them to be finding something to abuse to get a buzz. They'd be fighting tooth and nail with other humans and other carnivores for their food and supplies until they died (mostly).

The public school system being the reason for the prevalence of drug abuse... how's that? I agree with you that probably far less people should be in jail for nonviolent drug-related crimes. There are states that have "drug courts" for this purpose, and I think the White House was considering making them mandatory, but I haven't read about that in a long time so don't quote me on that :p .

I do think far too much money is spent keeping people out of the workforce for drug problems. It's a dumb idea. We're essentially paying to reduce our workforce, which is only appropriate in the case of violent crimes, in my opinion. I do not think that we have failed people who are incarcerated for non-violent drug problems though. They made their mistakes knowing the risks. If you want change, work to make the change. You shouldn't choose to just break laws instead, because if you do, you get put in jail.
 

JKE

Kava Curious
It helps to know that drugs fall under different "schedules" or classifications by the DEA. Some are more addictive, some have no medical value (according to the DEA.)
Ironically, marijuana is STILL a schedule 1 drug. Although, there's work being done to change it's status. And fast food, which is extremely addictive, has a HIGH potential for abuse, and is a general health hazard, is not a controlled substance..lol.

Either way, I get randomly drug tested at work because my company does work on government projects sometimes. Instead of determining who does or doesn't work on the government projects, they just test us all!

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Fast food is not on the scheduled substance list because it's not a drug, nor is it "extremely addictive" when compared to drugs, and doesn't exactly have potential for abuse. Define food abuse. That doesn't compute in legal terms. In any case, it would be up to the FDA to decide if fast food should be illegal.

MJ is illegal at least in part because it has a high potential for abuse and little/no currently accepted medical uses. Many pharma companies are trying to come up with alternatives to weed itself and instead isolate/modify certain chemicals in weed for their medicinal properties. This will give them much more money, keep weed and its psychoactive chemicals in more responsible hands (i.e., in the hands of doctors rather than dealers), probably increase GDP and tax money considerably, and ensure that weed is not being abused.

U.S. legislation is in a weird paradoxical/hypocritical position though, considering that alcohol is legal, yet it is far more dangerous than weed. And alcohol has practically no real medical uses, kills an alarming amount of people every year, and has an extremely high potential for abuse. So MJ being illegal is certainly unjust in that sense.
 
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ThePiper

Kava Lover
We see animals getting high deliberately in the wild all the time. There are many entertaining and informative videos on it, do yourself a favor and find one. :)
Scientists have done experiments on rats and find that when they are confined to an environment where they cannot thrive they will use the morphine dispenser placed in their cage. as soon as they are transferred to a better environment they do not go for the morphine. Positive environment negates the innate desire to use drugs that is in most mammals.

Yes there are legal substances that have caused fatal interaction with kava if my source is correct (herbalist friend who is well versed in internet research). They are very important substances and should not be banned. These would be the powerful MAOI containing plants. The case of death was with kava and syrian rue combined. Also there are a handful of medications that could cause serious damage when combined with kava. Everyone should arm themselves with research. Another flaw in your reasoning about MJ is that it was made illegal long before any research was done determining its safety profile.

The definition of a drug is incredibly shaky actually. You could probably argue that fast food contains chemicals that are pretty much toxic drugs (such as MSG) Fast food isnt legal because its safer than marijuana. that's laughable actually. You have too much faith in the system my friend. High fructose cornsyrup wreaks hell on the brain and so does MSG. Neither of these substances are meant to be manipulated to the degree that they are. Do I eat oreos even after reading the study that compares their effect to cocaine? damn straight, but now I know not to eat them all the time. Do I think they should be banned? God no.
 
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blindy107

Kava Lover
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Is kava bad for for you? Let's say later on they study kava again using a better method and/or more advanced technology and it turns out kava is bad for brain or anything like that i don't wanna take that chance I have enough brain damage and Health problems also marijuana was supposedly safe then later on a study cane out that said it "may" (does) causes brain damage and it was the same ppl who we're promoting it that did the study the American media wants us to be low self esteem dumbed down money wasters and they always promote toxic things like alcohol and tabacco so when they started promoting weed that's wen I knew it was bad plus media never mentions kava so thats a good sign but that's not enough I need someone to convince me it's not toxic
This can be applied to anything. 20 years ago fats were the worst thing you could eat. Hydrogenated oils were made to replace them. Now those are the worst thing. Only example that came to mind but there's countless others.

Science constantly changes based on new information or new ways to test, as you said. Just like someone having a change of opinion based on new information.

No one here can promise you with 100% certainty that kava is 100% safe. As stated earlier just waking up you take a chance with brain damage. I had a friend just drop brain dead at 31 with no signs leading up to it. Over in the snap of your fingers.

If you don't want to take a chance, don't take a chance.
 

blindy107

Kava Lover
We see animals getting high deliberately in the wild all the time. There are many entertaining and informative videos on it, do yourself a favor and find one. :)
Scientists have done experiments on rats and find that when they are confined to an environment where they cannot thrive they will use the morphine dispenser placed in their cage. as soon as they are transferred to a better environment they do not go for the morphine. Positive environment negates the innate desire to use drugs that is in most mammals.

Yes there are legal substances that have caused fatal interaction with kava if my source is correct (herbalist friend who is well versed in internet research). They are very important substances and should not be banned. These would be the powerful MAOI containing plants. The case of death was with kava and syrian rue combined. Also there are a handful of medications that could cause serious damage when combined with kava. Everyone should arm themselves with research. Another flaw in your reasoning about MJ is that it was made illegal long before any research was done determining its safety profile.

The definition of a drug is incredibly shaky actually. You could probably argue that fast food contains chemicals that are pretty much toxic drugs (such as MSG) Fast food isnt legal because its safer than marijuana. that's laughable actually. You have too much faith in the system my friend. High fructose cornsyrup wreaks hell on the brain and so does MSG. Neither of these substances are meant to be manipulated to the degree that they are. Do I eat oreos even after reading the study that compares their effect to cocaine? damn straight, but now I know not to eat them all the time. Do I think they should be banned? God no.
Msg has never been proven unsafe. If it was then eating mushrooms, tomatoes, seaweed and Parmesan cheese would destroy your brain as well.
 

blindy107

Kava Lover
Fast food is not on the scheduled substance list because it's not a drug, nor is it "extremely addictive" when compared to drugs, and doesn't exactly have potential for abuse. Define food abuse. That doesn't compute in legal terms. In any case, it would be up to the FDA to decide if fast food should be illegal.

MJ is illegal at least in part because it has a high potential for abuse and little/no currently accepted medical uses. Many pharma companies are trying to come up with alternatives to weed itself and instead isolate/modify certain chemicals in weed for their medicinal properties. This will give them much more money, keep weed and its psychoactive chemicals in more responsible hands (i.e., in the hands of doctors rather than dealers), probably increase GDP and tax money considerably, and ensure that weed is not being abused.

U.S. legislation is in a weird paradoxical/hypocritical position though, considering that alcohol is legal, yet it is far more dangerous than weed. And alcohol has practically no real medical uses, kills an alarming amount of people every year, and has an extremely high potential for abuse. So MJ being illegal is certainly unjust in that sense.

im hoping most of that was said sarcastically or stated from a gov point of view. Doctors don't seem much more responsible than dealers these days.
 

JKE

Kava Curious
We see animals getting high deliberately in the wild all the time. There are many entertaining and informative videos on it, do yourself a favor and find one. :)
Scientists have done experiments on rats and find that when they are confined to an environment where they cannot thrive they will use the morphine dispenser placed in their cage. as soon as they are transferred to a better environment they do not go for the morphine. Positive environment negates the innate desire to use drugs that is in most mammals.

Yes there are legal substances that have caused fatal interaction with kava if my source is correct (herbalist friend who is well versed in internet research). They are very important substances and should not be banned. These would be the powerful MAOI containing plants. The case of death was with kava and syrian rue combined. Also there are a handful of medications that could cause serious damage when combined with kava. Everyone should arm themselves with research. Another flaw in your reasoning about MJ is that it was made illegal long before any research was done determining its safety profile.

The definition of a drug is incredibly shaky actually. You could probably argue that fast food contains chemicals that are pretty much toxic drugs (such as MSG) Fast food isnt legal because its safer than marijuana. that's laughable actually. You have too much faith in the system my friend. High fructose cornsyrup wreaks hell on the brain and so does MSG. Neither of these substances are meant to be manipulated to the degree that they are. Do I eat oreos even after reading the study that compares their effect to cocaine? damn straight, but now I know not to eat them all the time. Do I think they should be banned? God no.
That's an interesting idea that animals abuse drugs when their environments are not up to par. Based on behavioral psychology (I think it's the behavioral branch), it would seem that animals would do that because they are not getting positive outcomes/reactions from their current environment, and seek a drug in order to get a positive outcome/reaction. That's pretty fascinating. However, we can both probably agree that finding or creating a better environment for one's self is better than using a drug to compensate for the lack of satisfaction with the current environment.

If "well-versed in internet research" means he uses only credible sources, then the info's good. Usually people use sources that provide information that supports a conclusion they already had though. I will remember not to combine MAOI containing plants and kava, thanks for letting me know (although I can't remember ever taking an MAOI). I agree with you that MJ was made off racism basically. Sorry if that wasn't clear. However, my point stands that MJ is being kept illegal because it is not safe, or at least, all of the risks have not been fully evaluated. Prominent research institutions that are heavily involved in this debate like John Hopkins and the Imperial College London have both put out studies saying that MJ has clear risks of "brain damage", or whatever you'd like to call it.

About fast food, I said that it isn't considered addictive when compared to drugs, I didn't say that fast food is safer than MJ. I haven't read enough studies on that to know. Your mentioning of high fructose corn syrup and MSG prompted me to look up some info on them. Of course, I've heard of both, but I had not seen research studies that assessed their risks. Apparently MSG is toxic to the brain and can cause swelling or injury to mature neurons. And high fructose corn syrup is directly linked to significant memory loss. I'll have to keep that in mind. I would say that the studies I've read about MJ's effects on the brain are worse than that though. But, I will emphasize again that I've only read that MJ is harmful to the brains of younger people, whose brains are actively developing.

It is very important in this discussion to look at this situation from the perspective of the government, since we are speaking about government policies. In their position, it is their job to keep us safe, but at the same time, law is kind of finicky. For instance, it's rare for foods to be banned because it just has never been done. Law heavily relies on precedents. So while it may actually be the best for the society to ban certain foods that are very unhealthy, there aren't many precedents that have been set, so they'd be going into unchartered territory with that kind of legislation, which is highly likely to encounter huge backlash even if it's the right thing to do. You also have to ask if banning things is really the most efficient way to solve problems. Maybe now it's easier to see why it's not so easy to be a government official, and why so many people mistakenly cry conspiracy on them.
 
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