Interrogatory and Vendor Updates - Root of Happiness 30% Kava Extract
- Thread starter kasa_balavu
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verticity
I'm interested in things
Is it true that this extract is made from Fijian kava in China? Why then do you claim that it is Vanuatu kava, and imply that it is not processed in China? Are you saying your product description is not accurate?
Tyler
Kava Vendor
Hi verticity, let me put this into perspective, last year we produced over 3,000kgs of this particular material in multiple batches. This took container-fulls of kava. For those of us in the industry who have to buy kava from the islands, the price and quality changes frequently and without notice. Sometimes you have to get your kava from another source when the price or quality from your regular source isn't where it needs to be to produce the quality of extract that meets your specifications. I apologize that I have not had the time to read through our product description carefully and change some of the details like the exact variety of Kava that this extract was produced from... it changes. Its a valid point, and I appreciate you pointing it out and I have updated it. I simply overlooked the product description written last year, and uploaded our current COA without thinking twice about it.
I feel as though I have addressed the issues that need to be addressed here in the appropriate amount of detail necessary for any reasonable person to be satisfied. Unfortunately I don't have any more time to dedicate to this topic.
I feel as though I have addressed the issues that need to be addressed here in the appropriate amount of detail necessary for any reasonable person to be satisfied. Unfortunately I don't have any more time to dedicate to this topic.
verticity
I'm interested in things
@Tyler, Ah I see you edited your web site to remove the reference to "Borogu", but you forgot to edit the bit that says "The result is a consistent, high quality kava product that represents the very best kava of Noble variety Vanuatu Kava." Just strike the word "Vanuatu" and everything will be technically correct. Whether you chose to edit the misleading stuff implying you don't process in China is up to you.
http://root-of-happiness.myshopify.com/products/polynesian-gold-water-soluble-extract-50g-bag
http://root-of-happiness.myshopify.com/products/polynesian-gold-water-soluble-extract-50g-bag
Kojo Douglas
The Kavasseur
I want to apologize for jumping to any conclusions related to ROH.
Rather than trying to build understanding relationships, I see a lot of finger pointing here - including from myself.
Bula
Rather than trying to build understanding relationships, I see a lot of finger pointing here - including from myself.
Bula
With due reason though, right ? Considering the given claims and the given information, initially, it was completely reasonable to bring up the issue. If it brought about satisfactory answers and necessary updates to the product info, it should be considered a good thing for the vendor and customer alike. Not to be taken as a smear campaign. For me personally, the way a vendor behaves and talks to their customers, has more sway on my purchasing than having all the proper documentation does.
Kojo Douglas
The Kavasseur
Lol, why edit out the "rather than trying to build understanding relationships" part?
At any rate, yes. I agree with all your points. But at the same time all the back-and-forth wasn't conducted in the best of spirits - from either side. We should seek to get information without threat or insult, right? If everyone is defensive, it just becomes a brawl.
One trend we see here is that this can become theater. It is actually really compelling to see so many vested interests in one place. At the same time, it tends to be explosive as well.
I've never tried any ROH products or really taken a good look at them. Just glanced through their website and heard anecdotal information. I don't personally entertain the idea of trying these extracts, but that's my choice and preference.
Bula.
At any rate, yes. I agree with all your points. But at the same time all the back-and-forth wasn't conducted in the best of spirits - from either side. We should seek to get information without threat or insult, right? If everyone is defensive, it just becomes a brawl.
One trend we see here is that this can become theater. It is actually really compelling to see so many vested interests in one place. At the same time, it tends to be explosive as well.
I've never tried any ROH products or really taken a good look at them. Just glanced through their website and heard anecdotal information. I don't personally entertain the idea of trying these extracts, but that's my choice and preference.
Bula.
Because I was responding directly to the part I quoted...just as I did here with this one also.
@Kavasseur you yourself have often argued that kava got bad rep because of dodgy extracts. As noted by @Tyler , it was mainly due to the shittiness of the German extracts (and the cultural bias that led to exaggerating negative reports and ignoring countless positive reports) that kava got banned 20 years ago. It's therefore not a surprise that many kava lovers are quite sensitive when it comes to seeing new kava extracts that appeared to be of questionable quality. We all understand that it is one thing to sell crappy powders and quite another to promote and sell super strong extractions made from dodgy kava by questionable manufactures. As @Tyler himself has noted "99%" of the Chinese extracts fall in the "shitty" category. In this context I am not surprised that many people were upset to see the discrepancy on ROH's COAs and that their extracts also originate from China.
At the same time, the discussion has been civil. Taylor has joined us here and provided a detailed explanation. He has also kindly agreed to update the information on his website. I think this discussion has been beneficial to our understanding of ROH as a kava vendor and the current situation with extracts.
At the same time, the discussion has been civil. Taylor has joined us here and provided a detailed explanation. He has also kindly agreed to update the information on his website. I think this discussion has been beneficial to our understanding of ROH as a kava vendor and the current situation with extracts.
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The initial question was fair, but when posting a product warning complete with a big "FFFFFFFUUUUUUU" instead of kindly asking for clarification about the inconsistency, a tone is immediately set.
Kojo Douglas
The Kavasseur
Certainly, posting a product alert was not in the best interests of civil dialogue. That should be pretty easy to see.
Well, I think the collection of pics was meant to add humour to the whole story. It's not like @kasa_balavu made anything up or told anyone here that they would get killed by this extract. The discrepancy was serious/suspicious enough to warrant a consumer alert, in my humble opinion. Especially in light of ROH's general lack of communication here and pretty active online marketing efforts (social media etc) aimed at promoting this product. @Tyler apologies if this is not accurate, but I am not sure if you would have bothered coming here to clear this up if this situation had not been presented as a clear product alert.
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Oh come on @Henry, the tone of the original post, the advisory, and the pics were clearly meant to disparage the product. Posts like that instead of friendly requests for clarification are exactly why ROH isn't more active here. Furthermore, I don't see how a business's online marketing efforts somehow invite an attack.
I guess it's a chicken and egg situation. I'm quite sure that if ROH was as active as yourself (and other reputable vendors) here, members would post polite questions or even just PM them directly. But they are not active here, so it's not like anyone could expect them to answer any questions. Instead, I think that @kasa_balavu assumed he had found what appeared to be another Chinese extract sold by a seemingly big vendor and decided (I assume) to alert others about it in the best way possible - through humour and the "alert tag" (now removed).
I agree, but it can be addressed maturely instead of finger pointing and inflaming a topic that as we have seen in this case was addressed.
I think you can you attribute this to the first point I made. As has been seemly the case with other vendors over time.
Kojo Douglas
The Kavasseur
There have been two main allegations brought against ROH here.
The first is that their Kava claims to be Polynesian but is, in fact, Melanesian in origin. ROH explained that this is due to the fact that this a trademarked product line that customers consistently buy. In essence, the source of the Kava might change but the label stays the same for consistency's sake. I think this is a fair explanation. The cultural issues of whether or not Polynesians and Melanesians get along seem a bit irrelevant here. Even if they are, why would anyone exploit inter-ethnic tensions just to prove a point or level a charge against a vendor? For example, there are many kinds of chocolate that have Mexican themes (where cacao was domesticated) but are made from cacao from Ghana or Ivory Coast. ROH is not guilty of anything here, and has no reason to retreat and create revolving labels for their trademarked product.
The second allegation is that this extract is the same as the Chinese extracts that everyone around here dislikes and are of low or dubious quality. ROH clearly explained that their Kava is not in any way connected to these extracts or the methods used in producing them. In fact, ROH explained that they had a set-up for processing these extracts with their own technology and their own Kava. The fact that this occurs in China doesn't mean that this is the same product people sell on eBay. (Not to mention the fact we are making all kinds of negative assumptions about China when we lambast anything made there - including the very computer or phone you typed your post on!) We should assume innocence before we jump to conclusions.
Deleted User brought a third line of attack that seemed to suggest that the labeling vis-à-vis nutrient content was misrepresenting the product. I didn't see that inquiry addressed. It wasn't a central point of discussion, but it would be interesting to hear more.
Finally, it can be said without very much reservation that the tone of this thread was indeed very hostile, particularly the initial post. Why the angry "ffffffuuuu" meme at the beginning? Why the dissection of parts of the ROH website looking for minor inconsistencies or edits? How do you know the vendor wasn't editing for clarity based on the vicious attack against them?
Do we want a community where people are pushed away, or where they are brought in on a friendly basis to answer questions? I think it's regrettable that people are so quick to take sides based on product allegiance or ideological differences.
We all need to drink some Kava, relax, and talk story in a level-headed way.
The first is that their Kava claims to be Polynesian but is, in fact, Melanesian in origin. ROH explained that this is due to the fact that this a trademarked product line that customers consistently buy. In essence, the source of the Kava might change but the label stays the same for consistency's sake. I think this is a fair explanation. The cultural issues of whether or not Polynesians and Melanesians get along seem a bit irrelevant here. Even if they are, why would anyone exploit inter-ethnic tensions just to prove a point or level a charge against a vendor? For example, there are many kinds of chocolate that have Mexican themes (where cacao was domesticated) but are made from cacao from Ghana or Ivory Coast. ROH is not guilty of anything here, and has no reason to retreat and create revolving labels for their trademarked product.
The second allegation is that this extract is the same as the Chinese extracts that everyone around here dislikes and are of low or dubious quality. ROH clearly explained that their Kava is not in any way connected to these extracts or the methods used in producing them. In fact, ROH explained that they had a set-up for processing these extracts with their own technology and their own Kava. The fact that this occurs in China doesn't mean that this is the same product people sell on eBay. (Not to mention the fact we are making all kinds of negative assumptions about China when we lambast anything made there - including the very computer or phone you typed your post on!) We should assume innocence before we jump to conclusions.
Deleted User brought a third line of attack that seemed to suggest that the labeling vis-à-vis nutrient content was misrepresenting the product. I didn't see that inquiry addressed. It wasn't a central point of discussion, but it would be interesting to hear more.
Finally, it can be said without very much reservation that the tone of this thread was indeed very hostile, particularly the initial post. Why the angry "ffffffuuuu" meme at the beginning? Why the dissection of parts of the ROH website looking for minor inconsistencies or edits? How do you know the vendor wasn't editing for clarity based on the vicious attack against them?
Do we want a community where people are pushed away, or where they are brought in on a friendly basis to answer questions? I think it's regrettable that people are so quick to take sides based on product allegiance or ideological differences.
We all need to drink some Kava, relax, and talk story in a level-headed way.
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Well, I see it this way: @kasa_balavu observed a rather worrying discrepancy re what appeared as yet another dodgy extract and made a funny meme about it plus added a product alert tag. Within a couple of hours most points were addressed by the vendor (who, in my humble opinion, would have not bothered to come here if it had not been for the publicity generated by the tag and the meme). Everyone has been polite. While some people (including @Kavasseur ) expressed concerns about the vendor and his products. However, in light of the vendor's explanations those opinions were either deleted or no longer repeated. There are a few other questions (unrelated to this thread) about the vendor or the American Kava Association, but it appears that most questions related to the product have been answered and this thread is no longer tagged as a "product alert". It seems to me that every sensible reader will be able to appreciate the explanations provided by ROH and will be able to appreciate the difference between their products and the infamous Chinese ebay extracts.
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