Kava and Antibiotics (Tis the Flue Season)

[Deleted User01]

Well I got some kind of sore throat and now I'm taking Azithromycin. 2 today and 1 a day for the rest of the week. I'm wondering if it is advisable to drink a small amount of Kava with this drug. I can't touch alcohol with it for sure but I could sure use a good nights sleep. Anyone have any advice? I don't want to stop the antibiotic from doing its job.

 

[infraredz]

Well from a MOA standpoint, it just binds to the ribosomes in the bacteria and inhibits the transcription of RNA so I wouldn't see how kava would affect that.

It is hepatically metabolized though CYP-3A4 (I think) which kava inhibits, so it could lead to higher than intended plasma levels. That being said, taking Azithromycin for longer periods of time also results in a longer half life anyways(68hrs vs 11hr).

However, azithromycin has been shown to have potentially dangerous cardiac effects. There are a large number of drugs listed as having potentially MAJOR interactions which includes. Since we don't know exactly what effect kava has from a cardiological standpoint, I would recommend against taking them together. If kava, through some mechanism, prolongs the QT interval, the could be a potentially deadly effect.

I'm not familiar with what the cause for the cardiac effect is, but
In 2013, the FDA issued a warning saying that azithromycin "can cause abnormal changes in the electrical activity of the heart that may lead to a potentially fatal irregular heart rhythm."

Here is what worries me:
"Large doses of kava pyrones can lead to abnormal atrioventricular function, consistent with kava’s well known muscle relaxing properties. Actions of kava pyrones on voltage gated ion channels, with antagonistic effects on Na+ and Ca2+ currents and modulation of K+ currents, are of importance for their mood stabilisation properties and these cellular actions show a large overlap with the actions of established mood stabilising drugs. Antipsychotic drugs prolong QTc interval and bind to the potassium rectifier channel, and their use may be associated with torsades de pointes and sudden cardiac death."
[http://jech.bmj.com/content/58/2/140.full.pdf]

There are some anti-psychotic drugs listed under the MAJOR interactions category because of their effect on QT interval so therefore, I would recommend against it.

I feel like I'm always the debbie-downer when it comes to this stuff but I would much rather recommend caution than have people start having adverse effects or death. Not only because I care about all of my brethren here, but also (but less importantly), it would harm kava's safety record.

Feel better man!

 

[Deleted User01]

Thanks a ton for your advice. I will stay away from Kava. Maybe now is a good time to take a short break from Kava. Maybe I'll have some grape dimetapp. That helps me sleep and it's so delicious.

 

[kavalover]

I can't really add anything to that.

But, I was prescribed amoxicilin recently for after a root canal (I was krunked during the procedure, that was kind of fun honestly) and drinking kava + amoxicil was one of the worst experiences with dermopathy I have ever had. Full on hives, skin rash and flaking and CONSTANT itching, benadryl was useless and I had suffer for two whole weeks.

I've never had that happen on amoxicilin alone, but I will never combine an antibiotic with kava ever again.

 

[Deleted User01]

Thanks for your input Kavalover. I think it's time for me to take a Kava Hiatus. If I didn't have a reason before, I certainly have one now.

 

[Bert07]

Dimetapp will do the trick. Nyquil knocks me out also

 

[infraredz]

Might as well. Taking a short break never hurts.

BTW, if you just have a flu (viral infection) why are they prescribing you antibiotics? Did you get a secondary infection?

 

[kavadude]

yeah, what it really comes down to is, does kava have an interaction with X substance? Probably not...but do you want to be the first person to discover if it does?

 

[kavalover]

yeah, what it really comes down to is, does kava have an interaction with X substance? Probably not...but do you want to be the first person to discover if it does?

I would take that risk for you guys

<3

not really though

Dimetapp will do the trick. Nyquil knocks me out also

It didn't unfortunately, and all the nyquill preps I could find use diphenhydramine as their antihistamine which is the same stuff as benadryl. I actually think my teenage self ruined diph for me for reasons this isn't the place to discuss.

 

[violet]

I don't think diphenhydramine is all that benign anyway. I've heard some crazy anecdotes from friends in the medical field related to it, and I know my own reaction to it is always different and never predictable.

I'm glad this thread topic has come up. I definitely avoid things like tylenol and NSAIDs since I began using kava, but I'm not sure that if I was traveling with extract how much I would think into it if I ended up having to dose something for some parasite or another (I'm hoping some new ideas I've picked up will be effective enough that I won't have to do that). I will most certainly be mindful of this now, especially after hearing about kavalover's experience.

@Deleted User01 I hope you are able to get plenty of rest so you can feel better soon!

 

[infraredz]

I don't think diphenhydramine is all that benign anyway. I've heard some crazy anecdotes from friends in the medical field related to it, and I know my own reaction to it is always different and never predictable.

I'm glad this thread topic has come up. I definitely avoid things like tylenol and NSAIDs since I began using kava, but I'm not sure that if I was traveling with extract how much I would think into it if I ended up having to dose something for some parasite or another (I'm hoping some new ideas I've picked up will be effective enough that I won't have to do that). I will most certainly be mindful of this now, especially after hearing about kavalover's experience.

@Deleted User01 I hope you are able to get plenty of rest so you can feel better soon!

What do you mean about it not being benign? A lot of crazy anecdotes are probably due to people using it ("recreationally) for its deliriant effect if that's what you referring to...? Also, I'm pretty sure that aspirin should be okay, at least from an hepatic standpoint but honestly, I've found that kava not only helps my pain, but seems to reduce inflammation (especially skeletal muscular pain)

Antiparastics don't have the same cardiac side-effects that some antibiotics do so you would probably be okay with those. Where are you traveling that you would be getting a parasite? Usually it's somewhere pretty exotic!

 

[yiki]

Well, i wish you a speedy recovery OP, BUT...why are you taking antibiotics for a sore throat? In most cases, antibiotics are not even indicated/won't help beside the placebo effect. Then, a ton of anti-biotics are pretty nasty and have sideefects. There is also the risk of developing & spreading germ resistancies. So i would be carefully with that stuff, only take it if i really have a FLU and not some influenca like illnes.

 

[violet]

@infraredz Re the diphenhydramine, it was measured doses administered in a clinical setting, effects were all psych related. Until now I had never heard of it being used recreationally before.

I also see a reduction in inflammation with kava usage. I was expecting my wrist tendinitis to flare badly with squeezing daily, but the opposite has happened, my tendinitis symptoms are greatly reduced, kava has been more effective than surgery for me in that respect. I also used to get tension headaches every day, those have completely disappeared since beginning kava.

We go to the mountains in rural Mexico, and I get a giardia infection every time. It's not so bad for most people, but if I don't treat it I get dysentery before it runs its course. Tinidazol and metronidazole (Flagyl) both work, and they may have potential to cause disulfiram-like reactions. Flagyl usually gives me side effects too. I don't know much more about them, but I figure playing it safe would be better than finding out about any cross reactions on my own. Last time I was able to hold off on dosing meds for almost 3 weeks into my trip, and I have some more things to try the next time we go.

 

[infraredz]

Glad to hear about the relief you are getting with your headaches and tendonitis. I've definitely had a similar experience.

Do you filter the water there? I go backpacking a lot and when I backpack, I use iodine/chlorine tablets but they also make pump filters, UV "pens" and other things that help with the bad water. I've never had an issue with the iodine/chlorine tabs but you might look into getting a filter (some will filter viruses some won't).

 

[endwatcher]

Diphenhydramine gives me extreme panic, with uncontrollable shaking, and a shocked feeling.

Infraredz,
They actually say alot of people are infected with parasites and dont even know it,even those in non exotic areas. I personally believe they are the leading cause to alot of todays problems, such as mood"mental" disorders.
Is why people like the Amish treat once every 3-4 months with black walnut hull. "still green"

 

[violet]

Drinking water is always filtered or bottled. I gave up on brushing my teeth with it, I'm sure giardia is endemic there and the people that live there are healthy carriers. As hyper-vigilant as I can be, I always get exposed. If I can create an environment in my body beneficial to myself that is inhospitable to giardia without having to resort to nasty drugs, then all the better. I also love to eat from the street vendors, it's often a favorite aspect of travel for me. Touch wood, the only thing that's ever gotten me sick is giardia.

While I don't doubt that parasites can cause serious issues in susceptible individuals, and some parasites serious problems in most people, I think there is more to the huge increase we've been seeing in mood disorders. I believe many of the cofounding factors are quite modern, like generations of prenatal and lifelong exposure to thousands of substances, many of which are byproducts of manufacturing processes and commercial agriculture. We really haven't seen yet what long term effects all these substances are having on the population, except we do know that many of them are neurotoxic and create synergistic effects with others in the body.

 

[kavadude]

Reading these posts makes me glad I'm on well water. Nothing but pure water from mother earth. Well, with a touch of fracking fluid since I live in Texas

 

[Deleted User01]

Why am I taking antiobitics for a sore throat? It always goes to my chest without fail. Then I end up with Bronchitis and/or a chest infection. I had asthma as a kid and I always had the nastiest chest infections. So the antibiotic has stopped it within reason (I can report). I'm taking Delsym to bring up the crud. I'm coughing up phelm (if I could spell it) and that is a good sign. Looking forward to some Kava at the end of the week. Actually feeling pretty decent as I type this. Thanks for all the info.

PS. Since I work from the house, get plenty of exercise, and DO NOT go drinking at bars during the flu season, these bouts with Bronchitis are fewer and fewer in between. I really think the Paper Boy left it on my paper because he has been very late with the paper the last few days. So it has been a few years since I took any antibiotics. I try very hard not to abuse them since I do have a doctor in the family.

 

[yiki]

The thing is, antibiotics only help against bacterial infections. Did you made sure that it isn't viral? Most germs which cause the common cold are viruses. It also isn't uncommon for them to reach the chest - but a bronchitis or other complications are often because of SECONDARY infections. Don't forget that your immune system is already woirking hard to fight off the main infection, so it's kinda easy for for bacteria to cause bronchitis. THEN is the time for antibiotics imho. I'm not saying that antibiotics won't work in case of a viral infection, but that's most likely due to placebo....

 

[Deleted User01]

My doctor knows me very well (he grew up with me) so that is what he prescribed. I don't take bots when I have a cold but I know what a bad sore throat means for me. I'm self employed so I don't get sick days or vacation days for that matter. Bottom line, I can't afford to take a chance and end up with a full blown infection. I also don't have time to see a doctor to verify if it is viral or not. And I don't want to see the doctor and end up picking up something at his office with all the rest of the sickies. So I put all those variables in the mixer and the answer is "Take Antiobiotics and Cover Your Ass". I can eat plenty of yogurt later to replenish the good guys that got mutilated. It's funny, my son gives my wife the same lecture on taking Antibiotics. She takes them at the drop of a hat. I only take them when I'm looking at Bronchitis straight in the face. And sore throats are always a precursor to Bronchitis in my case. It's just the way it is since I was a wee laddie.