Kava and it's potential to cause psychosis

[kl.lithium2020]

I was wondering what all of your thoughts on this are? just in comparison to cannabis' links with causing psychosis.  I've personally seen 2 people I know affected by cannabis in this way.  However, I smoked cannabis for years with no problems other than increased anxiety (which is why I stopped after a visit to A and E with a racing heart rate)


After seeing these people go down like this (one has since made a fully recovery, the other unfortunately took their own life just 2 or 3 weeks ago) the potential for KAVA to have this affect is rather worrying to me.  I do suffer from GAD and social anxiety and have never found much help in drugs (other than alcohol!) or therapy so KAVA seems like interesting option (on a side note, i was on xanax for a few years which only resulted in three things 1) no anxiety for about the first week of taking them 2) massive anxiety about missing a dose (hence why i was on them for a few years) and 3) shitty withdrawal that i reckon has left me even more anxiety 


mostly lurking on this forum has shown me you guys are an intelligent - mostly - bunch of people so I'm looking forward to reading your thoughts on this


Cheers

 

[The Kap'n]

First, I'm sorry to hear about your friend.


Honestly, and I've been drinking kava for nearly a decade so I've been through a few roots, I've never once had my mental abilities effected by it in a way that would suggest the possibility of psychosis. It really just doesn't take you away from life. It's a pretty gentle experience. If you over-do it the worst you'll be doing is sleeping. For anxiety it is amazing, and the fact that it sticks with you gives you an anti-anxiety effect that lingers on into the next day.


You'll be surprised at how much it does....and doesn't do.

 

[kavalover]

I won't speak in chemistry-minded tongue and pretend I know what I'm talking about there (I'll let the ones who do know what they're talking about do that ) but I know that in my own experience, as well as what I know of those around me who smoke cannabis for recreation, that it is a very emotional experience to begin with. Some could even say cannabis has mild psychedelic effects in its own right. The main reason I quit using it was because of my anxiety and what I believe to be mania, I simply couldn't use cannabis to relax, it would do the opposite and exaggerate any emotion I was feeling at the time, similar to how alcohol affects me. I could see it pushing boundaries on my mental health easily if I continued. It's very heavily intoxicating, mentally.


Kava is kind of the opposite in these realms, as it is very intoxicating bodily with the only profound mental effect being elevated mood and a strong urge to go to sleep. I can't even fathom the possibility of psychosis or any violent/disruptive behavior while drinking kava alone. If anything, kava could be described as nature's xanax without the terrible withdrawal. I have problems with anxiety as well but rebound anxiety has never been an issue with discontinuation of kava after months of heavy use.

 

[krunkedout]

I'm really sorry to hear about your friends. It's always sad to see something like that happen to someone...



Over the past couple of days I have been doing some research into the whole cannabis and psychosis link and have learned a few interesting things that may help shed light as to why kava would most likely not pose this risk. The two active chemicals in cannabis are THC and CBD; THC causes most of the psychedelic effects and a lot of the euphoria, however, it can also cause some symptoms of mental illness and makes you paranoid. CBD on the other hand, is a natural anti-psychotic that has been proven to be just as effective as the types of anti-psychotic medication that is prescribed today. When the levels of THC and CBD are more equal it's thought that they sort of cancel each other out, or, the CBD cancels out the potential for mental health problems that could be caused by the THC. It's also not clear if cannabis is the cause for psychosis or if people who are at a higher risk for psychosis are more attracted to cannabis because the brain tries to self medicated itself with the CBD. The problem (in my opinion) is when mankind started taking cannabis and either harvesting it before the flower cycle is close to an end, causing the levels of THC to skyrocket; and constantly trying to create new strains that have massive amounts of THC and little amounts of CBD unlike in nature where the two would probably be more balanced and not out of whack (this is why we shouldn't fuck with what mother nature gives us and try to make it better). As far as I know, there is only one or two kavalactones that effect tue cannabinoid receptors in our brains; and even so, there's usually not a lot of the particular one in a lot of strains. But when you drink kava and compare it to smoking our modern day ganja, you will notice a lot of striking differences. First, there is no paranoia. Really there isn't. If you are feeling paranoid on your first few times its probably just the fact that it's a new substance. Although there are some similarities between cannabis and kava, the only ones are that it makes music sound better and there is some euphoria. But the fact that kava is very anti anxiety makes me think that even though there is a kavalactone that tickles your cannabinoid receptor every so often, it may not do so in the same way as THC, or it could be a different cannabinoid receptor (I think we have more then one). I personally used to smoke cannabis and I know that I always had problems with paranoia and anxiety and there were only a couple strains that didn't cause this for me, but kava on the other hand is like the good aspects of alcohol, cannabis, Xanax, and stuff like that except its not heavily MENTALLY intoxicating and has basically no side effects. When you smoke some dank stuff you can feel your mind sort is slipping away and that can freak you out, but I have never once felt like that with kava no matter how much I drink. I actually think that kava has helped my mental function and made my thinking a bit clearer.

 

[kl.lithium2020]

thanks everyone for your replies. some food for thought there....


my problem is that watching people go down hill like that is such a horrible thing to see and thought if it happened to yourself is just terrifying. on the other hand im drinking way too much alcohol to try and deal with the anxieties that its rally starting to damage health. from my reading here and other places around the web it really does look like kava is much less harmful than alcohol or any other drug which could relieve anxiety

 

[KavaKrunked]

lithium2020 - I'm so sorry to hear about your friend. My condolences regarding your loss...


I first smoked weed and then drank alcohol to self-medicate anxiety and it only took me about a year of daily drinking before I was a full-fledged alcoholic, unable to go one day without booze or risk severe anxiety, insomnia, etc. My advice: quit while you're ahead.


Kava has been a godsend to me. Being VERY familiar with both pot and alcohol and now kava, I can attest to others' sentiments that kava is quite unlikely to result in any kind of psychosis. On the contrary, I feel my mental stability and well-being was greatly affected over the long term by MJ and alcohol. Things are much better now that I stick to my almost daily kava routine and have cut out the other substances completely.

 

[kl.metacog]

From one person struggling with alcohol abuse to another, it's definitely worth a shot. I stopped drinking about a week ago and it's helped tremendously. I used to drink booze for anxiety as well, but now I don't think I will ever again now that I have kava. The anti anxiety effect lasts much longer and you don't sacrifice mental clarity to have it.
I'd also like to add my sincere condolences regarding your friend, lithium.  A very sad thing indeed.

 

[kl.NDG]

Kava's only real mechanism to induce psychosis is reversible MAO-B inhibition, even then it's weak. Yangonin is a CB1 agonist, but much much weaker then MJ and it's content is negligible in most kava's.

I see no pharmacological reason kava would induce psychosis, in fact that calcium channel inhibition would have some positive benefits in that regard.

 

[krunkedout]

Kava's only real mechanism to induce psychosis is reversible MAO-B inhibition, even then it's weak. Yangonin is a CB1 agonist, but much much weaker then MJ and it's content is negligible in most kava's.

I see no pharmacological reason kava would induce psychosis, in fact that calcium channel inhibition would have some positive benefits in that regard.

I was hoping you would chime in on this!

 

[mos3z]

I think we are all incredibly lucky to have NDG on the forum. I think its awesome that he can share his knowledge with us.

 

[krunkedout]

I think we are all incredibly lucky to have NDG on the forum. I think its awesome that he can share his knowledge with us.

I second this!

 

[Prince Philip]

I find that kava induces in me a certain "rationality," if that's the correct word.


The only reason I would find the word incorrect is due to what Antonio Demasio cataloged in his book "Decartes' Error." The idea is that emotion clouds our judgements, and to a certain extent strong emotion can cause people to ignore logic and reason, but it is a disconnect from emotion and logic that leads people who have this disconnection as a neurological disorder to be incapable of making a decision at all.


For my "intellect," kava heightens it. I have used kava as a study drug to enhance the learning process, and have done amazingly well. Only one time did I have a perfect score, but that is one time more than most people. Kava also increases my empathy and emotional responsiveness. All-in-all, kava induces in me a greater sanity than I could experience without kava.

 

[uuku pi]

I find that kava induces in me a certain "rationality," if that's the correct word.


The only reason I would find the word incorrect is due to what Antonio Demasio cataloged in his book "Decartes' Error." The idea is that emotion clouds our judgements, and to a certain extent strong emotion can cause people to ignore logic and reason, but it is a disconnect from emotion and logic that leads people who have this disconnection as a neurological disorder to be incapable of making a decision at all.


For my "intellect," kava heightens it. I have used kava as a study drug to enhance the learning process, and have done amazingly well. Only one time did I have a perfect score, but that is one time more than most people. Kava also increases my empathy and emotional responsiveness. All-in-all, kava induces in me a greater sanity than I could experience without kava.

My intellect does not come close to many of the people here,but it is enhanced by kava,as is my ability to tolerate situations which have levels of emotion that I find intolerable in my normal state.  Since imbibing a steady diet of kava for a while now my understanding and tolerance have increased. I believe that I suffer from this 'disconnect ' which prevents me making decisions.  Kava seems to be helping me.  Thanks Prince for this explanation

 

[Prince Philip]

It is as if the emotional and the logical are two halves of a zipper which kava unifies.

 

[uuku pi]

It is as if the emotional and the logical are two halves of a zipper which kava unifies.

I stop trying to control myself and act "normal" or as I perceive others would like me to act.  I start being myself ,and feeling as I did as a child. For me kava is the zipper for my very odd personality Kava stops my turmoil and allows me to function.  Just 4 days ago I was able to 'see' more of something I am working on using antique coral I got in Morocco, I had been stuck on this one for 4 months.  AAAHHHHH!  Thanks Prince

 

[kl.bukukava]

I think a good place for anyone wondering about this would be www.bluelight.ru there are plenty of educated peoples there who, in there free time, a hobby for them is researching this type of thing and helping people learn with them. You might want to ask your question there and give as much information as possible. For instance, if you've already experienced a type of psychosis from other psychoactive substances, kava could be another chip off the bedpost Or the pharms or drugs your already taken or have already taken could influence what kava does. For instance, I have read around this forum that kava relaxes you all and makes you tired. For me, at least so far, kava seems to relax my muscles, but it also stimulates me and initiates restless leg syndrome, and also, it seems to be facilitating overstimulation and nausea. The overstimulation reminds me of opiate withdrawal and mimics that so closely, for me, that its been an uncomfortable experience, but each day I take it, that overstimulation seems to be going away. I am actively taking an opiate antagonist on a daily basis, so my brain chemistry is going to be different from someone who has no experience with that.

 

[kl.grudge]

Although some 'heady' kavas can be stimulating for me, I don't think I would describe the feeling as either the onset of psychosis or paranoia. However, like bukukava sometimes the feeling can be a bit disconcerting if I over consume. But one easy fix for this is simply to use more balanced or 'body' heavy kavas which almost exclusively have a body and mind relaxing effect & generally reduce anxiety & promote relaxation. As this (http://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/cause-of-death/suicide/by-country/) page points out Vanuatu, a nation of heavy kava drinkers, also has one of the lowest suicide rates in the world. Although not directly related, this probably points to it having no serious detrimental mental effects on long term mental health.

 

[kl.Lente]

Anecdotally, since Kava saved me after a decade of straight alcoholism, I think we need to consider its potential as a replacement for those of us who self-medicate or whatever euphemism you like.

There is a strong correlation between alcoholism and suicide, though perhaps not causation. Although given my extreme shift in mood after shifting the substances, I suspect causation. But I'm not a doctor. Just an idiot High School English teacher. Whose grammar and spelling goes all to hell after Kava.

Perhaps this is not really a proper reply.





-Lente.

 

[uuku pi]

Lente!!Good reply!! we are a great many self-medicaters here.