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kava glycerine tincture?

Idgie

Kava Enthusiast
I did a search on the forums and didn't find anything, please point me to the thread if it already exists...
I know that alcohol tinctures\extractions are frowned upon for obvious reasons. Has anyone ever tried to make a glycerin tincture? Or would it be too weak to bother with? I'm thinking of something like this where you apply low heat for a few days, like this: http://wellnessmama.com/8168/how-to-make-herbal-tinctures/ go to middle regarding glycerin tincture.

I make a LOT of infusions (daily) but for tinctures I usually buy them. Only ones I've ever seen in the store for kava have alcohol. If enough of you think this might work (but don't know) I could give it a whirl. However I'm thinking this might have already been tried, don't want to waste time\kava if so. Wasted kava makes me sad! :)

p.s. still getting mostly good results from the root powder (I had some difficulties, that is in another thread), looking for something other than instant that I could take on vacation, to work, etc. And because I'm just interested if anybody has already tried this. I'm thinking it would be too weak to bother, but that is just a guess... the heat I think would definitely help. Any thoughts appreciated!
 
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HeadHodge

Bula To Eternity
I did a search on the forums and didn't find anything, please point me to the thread if it already exists...
I know that alcohol tinctures\extractions are frowned upon for obvious reasons......Any thoughts appreciated!
We have a new fungus among us now. :) You might try collaborating with @fungaloid, who seems to have similar interests.
 

fungaloid

Myco-nut
This was one of the things i was going to try.

It seems most of the methods to make cannabis oil work because the
kava lactones are soluble in non-polar solvents. I've had some success
using glycerin to make tinctures for cannabis, but i preferred some
form of concentrate as the starting material. It takes a month + to
make a glycerin tincture from raw cannabis flowers, not nearly so long
if a concentrate is used.

I would make (or use) an extract as the starting material if processing
time matters to you. Otherwise it could take months to make your
tincture. Google QWISO for a simple extraction method.

Why are alcohol extractions frowned upon? Doesn't the chemotype of
the root determine the safety of the extraction? Alcohol for extraction
in a tincture form would be consumed in such small amounts it wouldn't
pose a health risk.
 

HeadHodge

Bula To Eternity
Why are alcohol extractions frowned upon? Doesn't the chemotype of
the root determine the safety of the extraction? Alcohol for extraction
in a tincture form would be consumed in such small amounts it wouldn't
pose a health risk.
There are others here way more knowledgeable, but I believe the issue with alcohol is not the amount of remaining alcohol, but rather that alcohol pulls out other unwanted chemicals (potentially harmful) from the Kava root more so than does water based extractions.
 

kavadude

❦ॐ tanuki tamer
@fungaloid the potential problem with nonpolar solvent extracts is that you're pulling all the hepatotoxic flavokawain B which is not really present in water extracts and not pulling the liver-protecting glutathione which is. That said, although several members have worked on extracts I don't believe anyone has reported back.
 
D

Deleted User01

Idgie. Kavalot came up with a prep to take micronized and make a concentrated Micronized Syrup. This is basically concentrated Grog that doesn't taste bad. And since it doesn't taste bad, you can mix it with orange juice and ginger ale, Club Soda, Cranberry juice and it's like a having a mixed drink with vodka and fruit juice. But with your favorite botanical and no alcohol. So now you can sip your Kava Kocktail slowy and actually enjoy it instead of throwing it down and washing your mouth. You can probably pick it up in Tidyminions Mimosa Thread.

Kavadude, excellent point and one that I plan on reusing with your permission. I already used your quote regarding sleep studies. Excellent advice as usual. You will see the final product in the next few days.
 

fungaloid

Myco-nut
the key here is finding a solvent for chalcones with a suitable temperature-solubility gradient.

like how sugar is very soluble in hot water, but not so much in cold.

i have found scientific literature on chalcones that leads me to believe that property can be
used to the extractor's advantage. this same literature suggests that chalcones can be crystallized
out of EtOH using NaOH. I have attached a picture of a crystallized (synthesized) chalcone
from this literature.
 

Attachments

D

Deleted User01

the key here is finding a solvent for chalcones with a suitable temperature-solubility gradient.
i have found scientific literature on chalcones from this literature.
I have a lot of experience with "Chones" if you need any help. I might write a revealing book one day.
 

infraredz

BULA!
Why are alcohol extractions frowned upon? Doesn't the chemotype of
the root determine the safety of the extraction? Alcohol for extraction
in a tincture form would be consumed in such small amounts it wouldn't
pose a health risk.
The chemotype has nothing to do with the determination of safety of an extraction since it only refers to the relative percentage of kavalactones present. The issue is the with an organic nonpolar solvent extracting the hydrophobic compounds (flavokavains, among others) that are potentially hazardous as mentioned above.

The amount of alcohol is safe, this is true, since one would only be consuming relatively small amounts of EtOH. The problem is the level of these undesirable compounds present in the tincture.

Also, it is very important to note that nonpolar solvents don't seem to extract glutathione, a very important compound in regard to hepatotoxicity whereas traditional, aqueous preparations do.
This is especially important since glutathione depletion (caused by certain compounds [like FKs]) is a leading hypothesis for hepatotoxicity by Dr. Chengguo (Chris) Xing


[excerpt from interview]:
"But it turned out over recent analysis in combination with the work from [inaudible] demonstrated that this Tudei contains higher level of a certain type of chemical that can deplete Glutathione that compromises the liver function for detoxification function which may contribute to the observed hepatotoxicity among kava users."
http://www.kavaforums.com/forum/thr...ultivar-and-that-cultivar-is-tudei-kava.2557/



Below is a post that I compiled in regard to ethanol extractions, for reference to your question regarding EtOH tinctures (obviously this doesn't apply to the proposed extraction using glycerine as a solvent):

"The extraction process (aqueous vs. acetone in the two types of preparations) is responsible for the difference in toxicity as extraction of glutathione in addition to the kava lactones is important to provide protection against hepatotoxicity"
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0031942203003819

"However, several reports of hepatotoxicity have been linked to the consumption of kava extracts in Western countries, where mainly ethanolic or acetonic extracts are used. The mechanism of toxicity has not been established, although several theories have been put forward.
The composition of the major constituents, the kava lactones, varies according to preparation method and species of kava plant, and thus, the toxicity of the individual lactones has been tested in order to establish whether a single lactone or a certain composition of lactones may be responsible for the increased prevalence of kava-induced hepatotoxicity in Western countries.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21506562

"Some manufacturers highly concentrate the lactone content in their extracts.
As a consequence, important compounds are left out and the effects are different from those produced by the traditional juice beverage.
An unfortunate example of the “different effects” would be those resulting in the liver toxicity that has been reported to occur with use of commercially concentrated extracts made with chemical solvents."

"The extraction process utilizes acetone or alcohol and produces a sticky paste, which has little resemblance to the natural form of Kava in use in the South Pacific.
It is possible that the recently developed chemical processing introduces compounds into the standardized product that can affect the liver.
Another possibility is that the chemical solvents used do not extract the same compounds as the natural water extracts in traditional use. The extraction process may exclude important modifying constituents soluble only in water."

"These Aboriginal individuals consumed approximately 375 grams of dried whole root of Kava as a beverage in water per week. Generally, available Kava averages about 9% kavalactones and as a water extract 5% would be made available in the prepared beverage.
Therefore, the assumption can be made that 2700 milligrams (over 12 times the recommended dose) of total kavalactones was consumed daily for 6 years and these people had no liver symptoms but did have a liver enzyme elevation.
Compare this to one death and multiple liver transplants with patients who used standardized extracts. These patients had used those standardized products for less than a year and only marginally exceed the recommended dose of 210 mg/day.
Another smaller group of Aboriginals consumed about 100 grams per week (which is 3 times the suggested dose of the standardized extract) and had no symptoms. These individuals were former abusers of alcohol and in poor health when the study began.
This study supports the use of Kava as a water extract as compared to the liver toxicity
associated with standardized extract form."

"The German medical literature also reports a standardized ethanolic extract of kava with concentrated lactones, was the probable cause of hepatitis in another woman who required a liver transplant. [3]"
[3]. Kraft M, Spahn TW, Menzel J et al. Fulminant liver failure after administration of the herbal
antidepressant Kava-Kava. Dtsch. Med. Wschr., 126:970-972, 2001 [in German]
http://www.eclecticherb.com/kava/pdf/4page.pdf


"A recent WHO risk assessment concluded that “clinical trial of kava have not revealed hepatoxicity as a problem5 suggesting that “water extracts are devoid of toxic effects” [6] and recommending that “products should be developed from water-based suspensions of kava” [7]."
[6] WHO (2007): Assessment of the risk of hepatotoxicity with kava products, p. 59
[7] WHO (2007): Assessment of the risk of hepatotoxicity with kava products, p. 62
"In 2005, Food Safety Australia and New Zealand reported the health risk assessment of kava and the associated hepatoxicity from commercial acetonic or ethanolic kava extract marketed [...]"
http://www.kavaforums.com/forum/attachments/codex-madang-na12_kava_draft-pdf.64/

"It is important to note that although Western “industrial” kava preparations are mainly extracted with organic solvents (e.g., ethanol,acetone), traditional kava drinks are prepared by dipping the kava roots/rhizomes in water or coconut juice with an apparently safe history"

"We report herein that organic solvent-extracted kava root extracts contain high levels of FKB that induce severe hepatocellular toxicity through inducing oxidative stress, modulating IKK/NF-κB and MAPK signaling pathways.It is therefore concluded that FKB is the major, and perhaps the exclusive, chalcone contributing to the hepatotoxicity of kava extracts, and its levels should be tightly monitored and controlled during preparation of kava root extracts if organic solvents are used for extraction."

"Traditionally, extraction of these compounds is performed using aqueous solutions, yielding relatively low levels of kavalactones (~4.6%, Table 1). Modern extraction techniques using organic solvents (e.g., acetone, ethanol) yield significantly higher levels of kavalactones (~45–55%, Table 1), and dramatically higher levels of lipophilic chalcones in the extract (~160-fold for FKB, Table 1).
Recently organic extracts of kava root rhizomes, sold as over-the-counter herbal supplements, were reported to induce severe hepatotoxicity."

"In agreement with this in vivo observation, our data (Fig. 1A) showed that indeed kavalactones had no significant effects on the viability of selected liver cell lines.
On the other hand, we show here that chalcones, compounds that are dramatically enriched in organic solvent-based extractions (Table 1), were accountable for the observed hepatotoxicity (Fig. 1)."

"In summary, we showed that in organic solvent-extracted kava root extracts, chalcones, and especially FKB are dramatically enriched. We also demonstrated that FKB is a potent hepatotoxin that induces hepatocellular apoptosis."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2992378/


"FKB was also present in ethanolic extracts of roots of the two-days cultivar Palisi from Vanuatu with a ten-fold higher amount compared to the noble cultivar Ava La’au from Samoa (DiSilvestro, Zhang, & DiSilvestro, 2007). In dried roots of an unknown cultivar from Vanuatu, analysis by gas-chromatography–mass spectrometry (GC–MS) showed for FKB peak areas of 0.1% and 0.5% for aqueous and acetonic extracts respectively (Xuan et al.,2008)."

"Kavalactones were then extracted using organic solvents but alkaloids were most likely extracted too and so probably were flavokavins (Teschke et al., 2009)."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24423570


"In 2003, cases of hepatotoxicity in connection with the use of Western acetonic and ethanolic kava products were reported; at the same time, it was observed that liver toxicity had not been documented with traditional water-based kava extracts used in Pacific countries, such as the South Pacific Islands and Australia [6, 7]."

"Therefore, the five studies all showed either normal or slightly increased ALT and AST values, and in none of these studies was there evidence for clinically relevant hepatocellular injury [1418]. This is in contrast to high ALT and AST values observed in patients who used ethanolic or acetonic kava extracts [12, 13].
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3269575/

That is obviously not exhaustive when one considers the vast amount of research available, but needless to say, there is quite a lot of evidence that shows there is at the very least, a probable increase in toxicity of solvent extractions than with traditional, aqueous extractions."
 
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fungaloid

Myco-nut
All those papers are useful, but you have to realize that they are all pointing to
the same relatively few cases of toxicity. Restating the same thing over and
over from the same data.

Has anyone seen a recent case of hepatoxicity?

Not saying they don't exist, but I would like a bigger data set before drawing
conclusions. There was a guy in Germany making co2 extracts, maybe he was
using bad quality kava and that also contributed to the Euro scare. Could have
even been mycotoxins instead of bad kava, were any of the hepatoxic extracts
tested?

It is therefore concluded that FKB is the major, and perhaps the exclusive, chalcone contributing to the hepatotoxicity of kava extracts, and its levels should be tightly monitored and controlled during preparation of kava root extracts if organic solvents are used for extraction.
This statement is what fuels my desire to discover a safer extraction procedure.

For the record, it is very likely that glycerine will extract FKB.

The chemotype has nothing to do with the determination of safety of an extraction since it only refers to the relative percentage of kavalactones present. The issue is the with an organic nonpolar solvent extracting the hydrophobic compounds (flavokavains, among others) that are potentially hazardous as mentioned above.
You are misusing the word chemotype. With science vocabulary you can't just arbitrarily
decide that you want to apply the definition in a certain context and not in another.
Chemotype does not only refer to the relative % of lactones present and their amounts.
Chemotype can also refer to the amount of FKs in a noble variety vs a tudei variety. When
I said chemotype, I was referring to the larger amount of undesirables in tudei.

The chemotype absolutely determines the safety of an extraction. If you use a root that
has very little FKB, the chemotype of that root is (theoretically) safer for extracts.
 

kavadude

❦ॐ tanuki tamer
There are several theories floating around re: kava hepatotoxicity. Flavokawain B, microbial contamination, usage of aerial portions of the plant (which, aside from being useless, contain another hepatotoxic compound, pipermethysticin). There are no recent reported cases of hepatotoxicity. Nobody around here is drawing conclusions about the cause of hepatotoxicity, but we like to take a better safe than sorry approach since regulators have shown they need very little scientific evidence to go around banning things.
 

infraredz

BULA!
You are misusing the word chemotype. With science vocabulary you can't just arbitrarily
decide that you want to apply the definition in a certain context and not in another.
Chemotype does not only refer to the relative % of lactones present and their amounts.
Chemotype can also refer to the amount of FKs in a noble variety vs a tudei variety. When
I said chemotype, I was referring to the larger amount of undesirables in tudei.

The chemotype absolutely determines the safety of an extraction. If you use a root that
has very little FKB, the chemotype of that root is (theoretically) safer for extracts.
You're absolutely right, and I'm sorry that I've just become conditioned to years of applying the word "chemotype" to the KL relative amounts.

I misinterpreted your comment as positing that tudei kava (with a usual KL chemotype different than others) was the method of determining if a given chemotype was suitable.
Sorry that I assumed that's what you mean, since "assuming makes an ass out of you and me".

You're absolutely right that with a chemotype (reflecting FKs and other possible undesirable compounds) would be a good way of detecting a suitable kava for extraction.
Unfortunately with kava, the only chemotypes you will readily find are going to be in regard to relative KL content.

Just as a reminder to explain what we are discussing, a chemotype is referred to (by Wikipedia) as:
"A chemotype (sometimes chemovar) is a chemically distinct entity in a plant or microorganism, with differences in the composition of the secondary metabolites. Minor genetic and epigenetic changes with little or no effect on morphology or anatomy may produce large changes in the chemical phenotype. Chemotypes are often defined by the most abundant chemical produced by that individual and the concept has been useful in work done by chemical ecologists and natural product chemists. With respect to plant biology, the term "chemotype" was first coined by Dr. Rolf Santesson and his son Johan in 1968, defined as, "...chemically characterized parts of a population of morphologically indistinguishable individuals."[1]"


So obviously, if we had the data, this could be applied to things such as flavokavains as well which is what you obviously meant. Sorry for the assumption.
 

Idgie

Kava Enthusiast
thanks! I did see fungaloids other post (ha good name) but for some reason didn't think he\she was thinking of glycerin - looks like I may have been wrong!
However said fungus does above say that it might take a month \ months to get a tincture if using raw root powder - that was the kind of answer I was looking for. I was hoping it would be a shorter period, etc.... I think if I had an extract, I would just use the extract instead of making a tincture from it...

Looking forward to seeing more from everyone on the FKB issue. I do not have a background in the sciences and understand maybe only 10% of what I read above. It's still interesting and I can kinda 'glean' what the bottom line is, or what point people are getting to (or what theory they are trying to test). More please.

Deleted User01 as usual has good advice! I have some micronized on the way (the 4th of July sampler, first time getting some of the micro) and I am definitely going to give the syrup a try!

Thanks again everyone for such a lively informative discussion.
 
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