Kava + Raw Cacao Beans

[yiki]

Has anyone tried this combination? Do you think it's save ?
I worry a little about it since both are mild maois and there is definatley some buil-up occuring if you regularly eat cacao. I hear there are some vendors selling kava chocolate, but then, raw cacao beans are a different beast.
From an "effects only" standpoint, the combination is great as they both synergize superbly. While kava is calming, cacao provides a moodlift and energy. I have to say that i experienced a dizzyness attack once on this combo, but then again, kava does that sometimes as well.

Any thoughts, experiences ?

 

[Buddhacide]

I eat cacao nibs all the time, mostly in smoothies. I wouldnt think any sort of synergy would be noticeable.

 

[Akava]

Are you sure cacao is really psychoactive?

edit: I see it is... but only mild, I doubt there is any noticeable synergy because the effects aren't really that strong

 

[yiki]

Most people are not aware, that cacao in it's pure form is indeed pretty psychoactive on its own. It highly depends on the cultivar/brand you are using. Some nibs on the market have no effect at all, some are pretty strong. I've tested various importers to identify which one works the best for me. There is really a big big difference. If you search for "ceremonial cacao" or "cacao ceremony" you will find that there is a growing community of people utilizing cacao for self exploration. While i would think that cacao certainly is an empathogen of some sort, it's not an extreme high but still versy noticable and far above other "legal highs" which are not much more than placebo in many cases.

Cacao contains small amounts of caffeeine, and higher amounts of its cousin theobromine which is a stimulant. The euphoric effects of cacao are not well understood yet, but there is some speculation that it has been used synergistically for a long time:


It really is a neat thing to experiment with. A good starting point is 15-30g (that's 1/2 ounce to 1 oz.)
But it is very important to find someone who sells active and only lightly or unprocessed beans or nibs.

 

[kavadude]

Interesting post, yiki, any vendors you could recommend/

 

[yiki]

Unfortunatly, i do not know any good Vendors outside of Germany. Perhaps i could ask the shop i'm ordering to give up their supplier. I tried http://ceremonialcacao.blogspot.com but his beans have some negative sideeffects on me. On the plus side, they are selected for potency. http://www.heartbloodcacao.com/ceremonial-cacao/ may be a US reseller of keith, but not sure. I recommend you to go on amazon or ebay and just buy a couple of small batches and see which one works best for you. Even if they do not have an effect or only a mild effect, they're still very nutritious. Did you know that they are far, far more antioxidative than blueberries? It also contains an insane amount of magnesium and is arguably a very healthy food.

I'd love to see you try it and report back. I took a handful of cacao an hour ago and i'm already feeling it.

edit: Oh and you might also try health food stores. The first time i really got into cacao was with a small, expensive yet potent store bought batch I could not believe it...

 

[Akava]

Ive been looking into this and i might give it a try, however it seems like its not about the theobromine, more about the anandamide and PEA

 

[Buddhacide]

I had no idea you could get such an effect from cacao. I've been eating it for the antioxidants alone. I'd be interested in trying this as you describe, but would also appreciate a good source.

As with kava, I imagine there are so many amazing herbs etc... out there that depend solely on the quality of the product. Seems the more readily available something is the poorer quality it is. I know if my only experience with kava was the garbage they sell in the herb section of the high end health food store by my work I wouldn't be in any hurry to try it again. I often wonder how many other herbs I experiment with that have the same story. 9 times out of 10 when I try a new herb that's supposed to have an effect it does absolutely nothing.

 

[yiki]

You make an excellent point, Buddhacide, even though i would say that in the case of cacao, simply noone cares for selecting a psychoactive strain. Most people do indeed use it as a supplement for it's amazing anti-oxidant efficiacy. I can only encourage you and Akava to keep trying and keep eating higher doses. If found that 15g is the threshold but there is also a dosing guide on keiths website. I'm not sure if it really is the PEA or anandamide responsible for the effects. One would intuitively think so, but theobromine extract seems to have some euphoric effects on some people. The literature is also not very clear on this and there is a lot of speculation. One has to take into account that anandamide gets broken down rather quickly. Perhaps it'S efficacy is partly derrived from it being a mild maoi as you may or may not know, many maois are being used as anti-depressives .... from pharmaceutical agents such as moclobemide to ß-harmala containing plants and extracts (ayahuasca, syrian rue etc )

I would love to test different beans for their chemical profiles to find out what is actually causing most of the effects.

 

[yiki]

So i've recently tried a full dose cacao (30g+/1 ounce) with these Kava Candy Drops. It workede with no ill effects, but from my experience, a full dose kava is even better. I might add, that it might be a good idea to wait for the cacao to kick in because the coming up can be a bit uncomfortable at times. I have noticed, that cacao acts a bit like a psychedelic in this regard. It is kind of dependent on set and setting even though its effects are rather mild in comparison. Someone who isn't all too familiar with cacao will be surprised by it's stimulating qualities. I know that most people enjoy kava for it's relaxing and anxiety reducing properties. But if you are looking for a quality plant to reduce depression and get you all pumped up, cacao is worth a shot. 30g/an ounce of quality beans should give you an idea. Don't eat too much your first time as you will sorely regret it. Yes, too much can make you feel ill, even puke (even though i do not have experienced this myself...but the illness...very much so!). Good cacao nibs are more than just a nice addition to your morning cereals.

Anyone gave them a try yet ?

 

[Akava]

Is there any data to attest to its safety?
Also, do you think I could but this locally like at a natural store or something

 

[yiki]

Well, that is the question at hand.
We all know, that a part of the kava makeup ist inhibiting MAO-B and that's probably a good thing as cacao seems to contain serotonin. That out of the way, we need to look at the other components of cacao, especially the major ones Theobromine and Phenethylamine (PEA). There are actually quite a few reports of people taking maois (Deprenyl) with pure PEA to make it active in the brain. Some like it, some advise to proceed with caution because of potential heart problems. But now we get into the realms of anecdotal evidence. There are a couple of people on the Internet pushing the envelope on cacao and taking it with banisteriopsis caapi, the ayahuasca vine. The consensus seems to be not to overdo it because there is a risk of feeling really bad and having heart problems.

The question is, how much of a MAOI inhibition do you get with Kava and Chocolate anyways? I tried the kava and chocolate thing for weeks until i ran into problems, so there might be some sort of maoi buildup. Thsi phenomenon is nothing new if you take a look at those who are microdosing harmalas/caapi/rue. My gut feeling tells me, that it is reasonably safe in smaller doses of cacao and kava but that more research needs to be done and everyone who is interested in trying it should try kava and chocolate on their own first, establish a comfortable dose and then add the other substance.

And yes, you should be able to get it locally in health food stores. It can be ridiciolously expensive though. I think i have to pay the equivalent of 80$/KG at the store. The beans are potent, but it's 50% less if i order online.


BTW, i monitor youtube for the keyword "ceremonial cacao" and it is really booming...i guess mostly thanks to keith "The chocolate shaman" and his tribe, but i even met common folks who told me they knew people who liked cacao for it's mood elevating effects. It's an open secret that the right cacao has beneficial, psychoactive properties....

 

[Akava]

This stuff seems to be pretty powerful,
And it's freaking chocolate,

But yet, there seems to be very few experiences noted online,

One thing I will say is that I was watching a wellcast video, and they mentioned eating dark chocolate for stress relief

I think I'll give this a try soon

 

[Akava]

Hey yiki

Did I get the right one?

 

[yiki]

Hey,
Happy you are giving them a try. Cacao nibs are just beans with the husk removed. This is usually done by toasting them lightly. Some say that this removes some of the active, but that hasn't been my experience at all. Now you need to test the potency which can vary from nothing, to mild, to wild! I would guess that most people do not have a lot of experience with taking them at the right dosage and probably also stop trying if they happen to get an inactive batch. Like i said, 15-30g should be a good dose. Also be prepared to tune in and let it happen. It can be set and setting dependant much like a psychedelic. But chances are, you will notice it anyways. There are some outreagous reports about cacao consumption online such as:

"
I have experimented alot..and read alot about cacao shamanism in central and south america..and trust me..quality cacao when dosed properly is very entheogenic. It is almost like san pedro but without the visions..if you take enough you do get a visual glow though, but it is mild. It is totally different from coffee.

For me a "shamanic" dose will start at like 2 big table spoons.."

by jamie at the dmt nexus

You have to try for yourself , try different batches at the right dose and see how you react. Nobody can make predictions. But in every case, you'll get your moneys worth because cacao beans are so highly nutritious...rich in anti-oxidants and magnesium, it's unbelievably!

edit: Just to make things clear - i do not think that cacao is psychedelic , at least not in my experience, not at doses lower thant 40g .. but then, san pedro for instance isn't a psychedelic at low doses either

 

[yiki]

Any updates on your experiments, Akava? I have found that once you cross a certain threshhold , the effects get really pronounced, while they'd be rather mild (or even unnoticable for some) at a lower dose range. I would personally start at 15g, but more to test how you react to this specific batch of beans. Should everything go well, i would dose up and consume 30-40g next time. I also did some research on the longecity forum and there are quite a few threads about cacao and their supposed nootropic effects (it gets better and better with cacao!). Check them out if you are interested!

I want to make clear that cacao isn't a psychedelic, at least not for me. Perhaps jamie from the nexus had still a bit of caapi in his system? I don't know...it just does not match my eexperience with the beans! I also found some reports of people successfully combinin maois with theobromine (main alkaloid in cacao) and even taking Harmalas (caapi, syrian rue) with cacao. They do advise against high doses, this gets very nasty quick ..as they say...with your heart being on the brink of self destruction. Perhaps one should proceede with caution if combining with kava. But then, i believe, Kavas MAOI action is much milder than caapis....

Anyone else tried cacao yet?

 

[gaia.tree]

cacao is indeed VERY psychoactive. you gotta work with the raw stuff tho, raw powder or beans or best best raw "paste" selected for shamanic potency. I really enjoy this combination. 25 or so grams of raw cacao powder with a few shells of kava will definitely put you in a very happy ecstatic state. do be careful with your doses as I have experienced some troubling chest pains from too much kava while on my regular doses of cacao.

 

[Akava]

Hi @yiki
Ive been eating a lot of cacao lately, Im very close to finishing my 227gram bag
Ive felt the effects but not strong enough to be certain that it was not a placebo,

On mornings when i feel tired/bad mood I take out the cacao and i eat maybe something like 20 grams, im not sure of the dosage but thats my guess, it might be around 40grams in reality but I'm not sure because i dont measure

Im going to take everything i have left at once and if theres no strong effect ill try a different brand

 

[yiki]

I'm happy and grateful for your replies!

gaia.tree, thanks for the observation. Coulc you calrify your post a bit? How much is too much kava? And: Have you taken cacao the days prior to this occurence and if so: For how long ?

Akava, don't give up! Very curious to see how a bigger dose is gonna treat you! I would suggest to split the dose though and wait perhaps an hour in between as to prevent uncomfortable "surprises".
Gratulations on almost finishing your first bag - you've helped your body tremendously already

One thing i want to add: I found that cacao appears to be and unspecific amplifier. It can boost good mood, but can also do nothing or possibly make nthings a bit worse. I'm not too sure yet. But it seems to have the curious effect of "freezing" ones emotional state for quite a while. It also tenmds to "lock in" kava relaxation even if you stop drinking kava. Can you comment on that gaia.tree ?

 

[keeron]

Ive been taking Cacao Nibs for 3 days.. On the second day i noticed i felt High, similar to cannabis but without any slo-mo or other effects.
Mainly a brightening of my visuals and increased energy.

Its a very nice feeling that makes me feel anxious as f*ck.
It weird because i am actually enjoying this anxiety. Ive just took about 10- 15g 10 mins ago as im typing btw.

I think it perfect to mix with Kava, hopefully kava will completely get rid of any anxiety, even though its quite enjoyable. Even though i hate anxiety and suffer from it regularly
its strange that im enjoyable this feeling from cacao.
I suffer from Anxiety brought on by heavy cannabis use, i think im enjoying cacao because it acts in a similar way to cannabis but has zero thc so its not flipping me out like weed would.

Im going to try it mixed with kava this next week, ill leave my experiences / effects in this thread. Hopefully Kava will increase the enjoyable effects and calm the anxious feelings. Ive never felt anything much from Kava, i think i need to keep taking it for a week or 2 to see if the effects come, after my tolerence has reversed.