Massive European report on kava quality from 2015

[verticity]

I found this report from 2015 linked on the Root of Happiness web site.

It's a European study that contains a very detailed description of a quantitative standard for distinguishing noble from tudei kava, as well as a literature review and discussion of the legal situation in Europe. It includes Flavokavain test results for lots of specific cultivars, which is fascinating, and I recommend that anyone who is interested in kava quality and testing, or the noble-tudei issue read it.

One metric they recommend to assess "nobility" is FKB/Kavain ratio. Also, in the case where FK can't be measured they suggest a metric involving kavain level versus total kavalactones:

One interesting factoid in the report, that I hope everyone here will be able to discuss in a calm and rational fashion, is the fact that while PNG Isa definitely is not noble according to their criterion, it's FKB levels are lower than those of Vanuatu tudeis in absolute terms. They are still higher than FKB in noble kavas, but not by much, but since kavain levels are low in Isa, the resulting FKB/Kavain ratio is still high.

There is also some interesting discussion of the fact that FKB levels in traditionally prepared kava in water have not been definitively linked to any health problems, and therefore, FKB should be considered a measure of "quality" not of "safety".

So, some pretty cool science. Let's all please try to be civil and refrain from ad hominems in this thread, and just discuss that science.

 

[kastom_lif]

I wonder why it has become customary to compare FKB to kavain specifically, rather than FKB to total kavalactones, or FKB to some other KL.

Citing FKB/K ratios as a metric of quality sort of stacks the deck against heavy kava.

 

[verticity]

I wonder why it has become customary to compare FKB to kavain specifically, rather than FKB to total kavalactones, or FKB to some other KL.

Citing FKB/K ratios as a metric of quality sort of stacks the deck against heavy kava.

It's just because kavain levels are strongly correlated with kavas that are traditionally noble, and FKB is inversely correlated. It's not because it's customary, but simply that they searched for a metric that worked well to distinguish noble from tudei, and found that FKB/kavain was able to correctly differentiate all their test samples. If you look at the table on page 58, there is really no correlation between FKB/kavain and kavas that we think of as heady vs. heavy.

I think the reason it works is that even heavy kavas have to have a certain amount of kavain in order for people to experience the effects as desirable.

Interestingly, the K/DHM ratio, which I guess you would say really stacks the deck against DHM by placing it in the denominator, was found to not work as well as K/total of all other KLs.

DHK, the other "heavy" KL, is actually positively correlated with noble kava..

They also do use a third measure which is the absolute FKB level, which also correlates well.

 

[kastom_lif]

Speaking of those K/DHM findings... this really helps illustrate how a high K/DHM ratio does not necessarily mean a kava is "heady". Check out where mo'i landed! And wow, puariki is nuts!

 

[verticity]

Speaking of those K/DHM findings... this really helps illustrate how a high K/DHM ratio does not necessarily mean a kava is "heady". Check out where mo'i landed! And wow, puariki is nuts!

Some of those are not what I would expect, to the point where I wonder if they are accurate... for example Nene roots with K/DHM of 0.91 (the only anomolous value for noble roots), whereas the Nene stump chips are 2.80... that's just a huge difference for tests from the same cultivar. Some of the tudei K/DHM results are pretty odd also: a cultivar called "Two-Day" with K/DHM = 2.36 (roots), meaning more than twice as much kavain as DHM, which is very strange for a tudei.

I would be curious to see the individual KL percentages and chemotypes for each of those samples, because those ratios suggest some pretty weird chemotypes...they are in an "Annex 6" which is not included.

 

[Zaphod]

I found this part fascinating:
"As a consequence, the kava ban was not issued because of a relevant risk, but rather because of an assumed negative benefit-to-risk ratio. This was, however, not what was communicated to the public, as in the mediatic discussion of kava only the risk side was perceived and blown up to enormous proportions, which were not supported by facts and scientific evidence."
The argument against risk alone never made any sense given all the other medications (and drugs) with much higher liver risk profiles. However, calling out a lack of clinical trials for the benefit side along with the perceived risk makes a lot more sense to me.

 

[Zac Imiola (Herbalist)]

herbs dont work
herbs work be careful you'll die

 

[kalmia_latifolia]

@verticity - this is amazing! What a trove of data! I’ll be sending this to my scientist buddies that want to try kava but want more data before taking he plunge. The lit review alone is gold.

 

[sɥɐʞɐs]

Interesting and pretty thorough work here, glad to see more people working on the science.

Got to admit, it's kind of humorously ironic that many of the noble kavas that either pushed tudei boundary line or crossed it were Hawai'ian or Tongan. Also noted, the acknowledgement of the possibility for occasional false positives/negatives to arise, plus more evidence that Isa is distinctly different from typical Tudei varieties and actually falls much closer to the noble end of the spectrum than the others.

 

[verticity]

Interesting and pretty thorough work here, glad to see more people working on the science.

Got to admit, it's kind of humorously ironic that many of the noble kavas that either pushed tudei boundary line or crossed it were Hawai'ian or Tongan. Also noted, the acknowledgement of the possibility for occasional false positives/negatives to arise, plus more evidence that Isa is distinctly different from typical Tudei varieties and actually falls much closer to the noble end of the spectrum than the others.

Another interesting corollary of these results is related to the fact that the standard does not specify any cultivars by name or region as being excluded. Any kava that passed these tests could qualify as "noble" and be accepted for use in Europe. (Likewise, any kava that failed would be rejected regardless of it's pedigree). That means that Isa as it exists now is clearly not noble and would not be acceptable. However, because it's FKB levels are relatively low compared to other tudeis, it is possible that with continued selective breeding for lower FKB and higher kavain, in future years some descendant of Isa could pass as noble. Could in fact be noble. Since we have scientific tests available now that would make the breeders' task much easier than that of the ancient Pacific Islanders who bred the original noble kavas so it could probably be done faster: possibly decades instead of centuries.

 

[Bula Kava House]

Interesting and pretty thorough work here, glad to see more people working on the science.

Got to admit, it's kind of humorously ironic that many of the noble kavas that either pushed tudei boundary line or crossed it were Hawai'ian or Tongan. Also noted, the acknowledgement of the possibility for occasional false positives/negatives to arise, plus more evidence that Isa is distinctly different from typical Tudei varieties and actually falls much closer to the noble end of the spectrum than the others.

It is all quite interesting and the information about Isa confirms what I anecdotally knew. We used to sell a Hawaiian Isa, and a PNG we called Koniak, which was likely Isa. Both of these were very popular and didn't really have noticeable tudei like effects. We stopped selling the Hawaiian Isa due to price, and the PNG grower we worked with simply stopped operating internationally. Recently he contacted me to let me know our "Koniak" was once again available. I wasn't interested because at the time I wasn't looking to add another product. I also knew I'd have to explain to some customers why I was comfortable selling a non-noble kava. With this public scientific confirmation that the FKB content is relatively low, and very close to many noble kava cultivars, I may reconsider. There would be many happy customers - we still get a lot of searches for "Koniak" on our site.

 

[verticity]

It is all quite interesting and the information about Isa confirms what I anecdotally knew. We used to sell a Hawaiian Isa, and a PNG we called Koniak, which was likely Isa. Both of these were very popular and didn't really have noticeable tudei like effects. We stopped selling the Hawaiian Isa due to price, and the PNG grower we worked with simply stopped operating internationally. Recently he contacted me to let me know our "Koniak" was once again available. I wasn't interested because at the time I wasn't looking to add another product. I also knew I'd have to explain to some customers why I was comfortable selling a non-noble kava. With this public scientific confirmation that the FKB content is relatively low, and very close to many noble kava cultivars, I may reconsider. There would be many happy customers - we still get a lot of searches for "Koniak" on our site.

I believe what you say that most customers did not complain about the Koniak and seemed to like it. But my personal experience with it was that it did have notable second day effects. In my case it caused a feeling of malaise and depression, and actually a bit of stomach discomfort, the day after drinking it. I have seen other reports from members here who also reported next day effects from Isa, so I do think it is fair to call it "two day". (Although, to be fair, yes I have also seen independent reports from people who enjoyed the Koniak). Now, the second day effects I felt were not as bad as an alcohol hangover, so it might be something that some people are willing to tolerate (and it might be something not everyone experiences). The vendors who currently sell it all also warn customers that these effects can happen. Interestingly most of what we know about the side effects of tudei is based on anecdotal reports like yours and mine. The scientific studies that have been done of noble vs. tudei are mainly concerned with the effect on liver enzymes in vitro, etc., rather than subjective things like a feeling of lethargy, etc. It would be interesting to see an actual double blind study comparing reported side effects and second day effects of noble vs. tudei/Isa.

 

[Bula Kava House]

I believe what you say that most customers did not complain about the Koniak and seemed to like it. But my personal experience with it was that it did have notable second day effects. In my case it caused a feeling of malaise and depression, and actually a bit of stomach discomfort, the day after drinking it. I have seen other reports from members here who also reported next day effects from Isa, so I do think it is fair to call it "two day". (Although, to be fair, yes I have also seen independent reports from people who enjoyed the Koniak). Now, the second day effects I felt were not as bad as an alcohol hangover, so it might be something that some people are willing to tolerate. The vendors who currently sell it all also warn customers that these effects can happen. Interestingly most of what we know about the side effects of tudei is based on anecdotal reports like yours and mine. The scientific studies that have been done of noble vs. tudei are mainly concerned with the effect on liver enzymes in vitro, etc., rather than subjective things like a feeling of lethargy, etc. It would be interesting to see an actual double blind study comparing reported side effects and second day effects of noble vs. tudei/Isa.

I believe what you say about your experience with Koniak but it was rare. "Malaise and depression" from any kava isn't a common experience. It sounds as though there may have been other contributing factors, not least a negative placebo effect that could come along with knowing you're drinking a non-noble kava. In any case, we all react to kava differently.

Yes, some people reported negative effects with Koniak, and with other Isa offerings, but we can find negative effects with noble kava as well, including hangovers and nausea. When it was available, Koniak was possibly the most purchased kava in the US. It was our most popular kava. the ratio of negative to positive reviews was very low, and in line with noble kavas. It's not that people were "willing to tolerate" negative effects. Most people simply didn't experience negative effects. It's not a double blind study, but we sold Koniak to literally thousands of people online and literally thousands of people at the kava bar. Most of these customers were repeat customers. We don't need a double blind study to have solid anecdotal evidence that at least that particular non-noble kava was well liked and didn't cause common negative effects.

Our Hawaiian Isa was discontinued before our online sales took off, but people were happy with it at the Bula Kava House kava bar. I'm not as comfortable with my sample size there to make the same judgement as I do with the Koniak, though personally, I like Hawaiian Isa just fine.

Anyway, point is, if a concern with Isa was FKB, it doesn't really have to be, based on this report. If vendors have access to a kava variety with low FKB that is well liked by kava drinkers, I can't fault them for selling it. That said, I don't support vendors selling non-noble kava varieties from countries that forbid the export of them.

 

[verticity]

I believe what you say about your experience with Koniak but it was rare. "Malaise and depression" from any kava isn't a common experience. It sounds as though there may have been other contributing factors, not least a negative placebo effect that could come along with knowing you're drinking a non-noble kava. In any case, we all react to kava differently....

There was no negative placebo effect because at the time I was drinking the Koniak I believed it was noble. Other that that I agree with what you say. I do have a tendency towards depression, so the conclusion I would draw from my personal experience (if any conclusion is possible) I guess would be that if someone is prone to clinical depression I would recommend they avoid Isa.