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Kava Preparation More water vs further washes

B

BobBriggs

Kava Curious
Chemically speaking, is there any reason why further washes would be better at extracting more kavalactones than using the same amount of water in your one and only wash as you would have in multiple washes (assuming you also knead/blend for the total time you would have done for multiple washes as well)?
 
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Jacob Bula

Jacob Bula

Nobody
I'm curious too. It would be cool to see a scientific expirement test this. My instincts tell me no though, and that water would just effect the concentration ratio, because the actual extraction is simply mechanical, and the root particles are just suspending in whatever amount of water is in the bowl.
 
Fushi88

Fushi88

Kava Enthusiast
Jacob Bula said:
I'm curious too. It would be cool to see a scientific expirement test this. My instincts tell me no though, and that water would just effect the concentration ratio, because the actual extraction is simply mechanical, and the root particles are just suspending in whatever amount of water is in the bowl.
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Id imagine the time spent agitating and maybe even the "aggression" of the agitation of the Kava is the most important factor, right? Or am I once again trying to get involved in conversations about things I know nothing about??


Haha ahh....I hate being new and ignorant to things.

-fushi
 
Jacob Bula

Jacob Bula

Nobody
Fushi88 said:
Id imagine the time spent agitating and maybe even the "aggression" of the agitation of the Kava is the most important factor, right? Or am I once again trying to get involved in conversations about things I know nothing about??


Haha ahh....I hate being new and ignorant to things.

-fushi
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I don't think anyone truly "knows" unless there is an experiment I don't know about, but what you are thinking aligns with what I am thinking.

I do probably use more water than most lately though, because I like to drink things.
 
Groggy

Groggy

Kava aficionado
Admin
Generally, it's the agitation that releases Kl's.

What I believe happens is the water becomes too viscous to remove all of the kavalactones, hence the need for a second wash and on. You can get 4th or 5th washes from frozen makas (some of us saves them for a rainy day without fresh root, after the second wash).
 
fait

fait

Position 5 Hard Support
I'm no scientist/expert, but from what I've gathered about doing multiple washes with making kava grog is that water can only get so saturated with kavalactone content, so you have to submerge your used root in new water to extract more kavalactones from that particular root. At some point you have spent kava solids that aren't any good any more, but it all depends on how aggressively you extract said kavalactones. You could just be beating up a microfiber strainer bag multiple times or you could be using more pulverization with a blender.
 
B

BobBriggs

Kava Curious
Krunʞy said:
Generally, it's the agitation that releases Kl's.

What I believe happens is the water becomes too viscous to remove all of the kavalactones, hence the need for a second wash and on. You can get 4th or 5th washes from frozen makas (some of us saves them for a rainy day without fresh root, after the second wash).
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Yes, that is what I have thought. If you have a pint/~500ml of water there's only so many kavalactones that can be extracted by agitation before the water is saturated. But instead of having two further washes of a pint or half a pint each, I don't see why you can't just have one two pints/~1 litre wash and get the same results, assuming you knead or blend triple the time as well.
 
_byron

_byron

Kava Enthusiast
Ok I am going to put this to the test. I have been thinking a lot about this question and I need to know. I am going to make two mixes tomorrow:
(1) 1/2 cup .5 liter water knead 10 min , wash it again with .25 liter knead 5 min, and again with .25 liter knead 5 min, Add all them together
(1) 1/2 cup 1 liter of water knead 20 min

I will take photos of the two and test to see if I can notice a difference

What I think I will find is that the first mix will make a more potent drink. I do believe that the extra viscosity allows for more extraction to a point.
 
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A

AlexisReal

Kava Enthusiast
Krunʞy said:
Generally, it's the agitation that releases Kl's.

What I believe happens is the water becomes too viscous to remove all of the kavalactones, hence the need for a second wash and on. You can get 4th or 5th washes from frozen makas (some of us saves them for a rainy day without fresh root, after the second wash).
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That was going to be my own exact, expressed gut feeling on this, not discounting the addional agitation, but I figure a clean base of water for a second wash, may have greater absorption efficiency.

I don't adore the increased wateryness of sucessive washes, but I easily remedy this with less fresh water. If Aluballing, I may 2nd shake two balls, 25 grams, in 320 ml water.

It gives a very good strong, follow dose not too watery at all.
 
B

BobBriggs

Kava Curious
AlexisReal said:
That was going to be my own exact, expressed gut feeling on this, not discounting the addional agitation, but I figure a clean base of water for a second wash, may have greater absorption efficiency.
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I think this is the salient issue. My chemistry is not good enough to know if having new water, as compared to more of the old water, makes a difference.
 
_byron

_byron

Kava Enthusiast
IMG_20210125_151050.jpg
IMG_20210125_151107_3.jpg

Pic 1 - Small batches added together.................................................................Pic 2 - One large batch

Okok the pictures do not do justice here but multiple washes added together hands down creates a thicker grog. There is a way bigger kava taste and effect from the kava in pic 1.

I would be curious if anyone else has tried this experiment and what they discovered.
 
Krunkie McKrunkface

Krunkie McKrunkface

Kava Connoisseur
BobBriggs said:
Chemically speaking, is there any reason why further washes would be better at extracting more kavalactones than using the same amount of water in your one and only wash as you would have in multiple washes (assuming you also knead/blend for the total time you would have done for multiple washes as well)?
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Chemically, no. Physically, mechanically, yes.

grog is a suspension. The act of preparing grog consists of removing the kavalactones from dried root so they can float suspended in water. Once you have removed all the kavalactones from the immediately exposed (tiny tiny) surface areas you won’t get more, or not much.

Not like that any road. You have exhausted the immediately available kavalactones in the makas, but not all the kavalactones, not by a long shot.

But once you process the makas you will be able to expose more surfaces with kavalactones that can be expressed into the suspension. There are several methods to do this.
 
Krunkie McKrunkface

Krunkie McKrunkface

Kava Connoisseur
Krunʞy said:
Generally, it's the agitation that releases Kl's.

What I believe happens is the water becomes too viscous to remove all of the kavalactones, hence the need for a second wash and on. You can get 4th or 5th washes from frozen makas (some of us saves them for a rainy day without fresh root, after the second wash).
Click to expand...
I have happily drunk eighth wash. But I see no point in ninth wash
 
Krunkie McKrunkface

Krunkie McKrunkface

Kava Connoisseur
AlexisReal said:
That was going to be my own exact, expressed gut feeling on this, not discounting the addional agitation, but I figure a clean base of water for a second wash, may have greater absorption efficiency.

I don't adore the increased wateryness of sucessive washes, but I easily remedy this with less fresh water. If Aluballing, I may 2nd shake two balls, 25 grams, in 320 ml water.

It gives a very good strong, follow dose not too watery at all.
Click to expand...
That’s right, the key to multiple washes is either adding additional small amounts of new dry medium grind or by reducing the amount of water in each successive wash. This is not practical in small amounts but if you accumulate makas over time to reach a large enough starting mass, it becomes very practical.

Typically during the week I make my grog using small or large bags of medium grind that I shake in jars. After two or 2.5 washes I then chuck them in a container in the freezer. At the end of the week the container is full I take it out and thaw it and soak the bags in hot water and then knead again and get four more washes. Or more.
 
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