Kava Poll Positive effects vs. Negative effects *poll*

[NAMBATU]

For those of us who drink kava regularly, it can be hard to determine what's caused by the kava and what's just the ebb and flow of life.

Sometimes you won't get to sleep easily, sometimes your stomach might not feel right - all of these things happen anyway to people who never drink kava. I used to think kava led to a big drop in productivity for me, then I had a bit of time without it and realised I'm just a lazy bum regardless of what I consume.

It's human nature to blame something external for things that don't have an obvious cause. E.g. rain must surely be caused by the god of rain.

 

[recentreturn]

I do wonder how much kava is really part of a daily routine in any of the native cultures

Exactly. I'm still procrastinating starting a thread about this; but I've run into enough fragments of information to make me seriously wonder what the average person in the south pacific would really think about the way that we are consuming kava (including also things like using blenders and drinking it alone). An example of one article that makes me wonder about this is here: http://www.health.gov.fj/?page_id=3783
It just seems like there is plenty of room for discussion about what is and isn't "too much;" this suggests to me that the average person in the South Pacific is not downing 10 tbs worth of kava on a daily basis, much less doing so in 2 strong shells standing alone in their kitchen.

[Speaking of which, I just put deodorant on and my armpits feel like they are on fire. That's a reliable indicator that I am due for a non-optional dermo break.]

 

[SelfBiasResistor]

That's quite the slideshow from the Fiji Ministry of Health. I wonder how much of those side effects they are attributing to excessive kava usage vs lack of exercise, malnutrition, dehydration, etc in heavy drinkers.

 

[sɥɐʞɐs]

I'm surprised how many people consider the appetite suppression a big negative. I do enjoy eating a good dinner, or joyfully grubbing down at night like I can on alcohol, but I generally consider appetite suppression a neutral or sometimes a positive (for weight loss purposes). When I do find it negative, is when the suppression is largely brought on by my very unpleasant kava-induced nausea & bloating. -- I still have breakfast and lunch to pig out, I don't really mind missing out on an excessive american dinner.

For those of us who drink kava regularly, it can be hard to determine what's caused by the kava and what's just the ebb and flow of life.

Sometimes you won't get to sleep easily, sometimes your stomach might not feel right - all of these things happen anyway to people who never drink kava. I used to think kava led to a big drop in productivity for me, then I had a bit of time without it and realised I'm just a lazy bum regardless of what I consume.

It's human nature to blame something external for things that don't have an obvious cause. E.g. rain must surely be caused by the god of rain.

I do agree humans have a tendency to blame things on the supernatural, or minorities, or the 'new thing' or what they don't yet understand...but this is definitely not what's going on with me and my stomach issues with kava. I've been drinking kava for a long time, the massive bloat and nausea and sickening feeling I get comes on after I consume kava, it's very clear, very direct, very predictable and absolutely not just a natural ebb and flow. If i drink alcohol instead of kava or stay sober, I don't experience the same issues...in that case over a span of time, then yeah there will eventually be some nights here and there where I naturally will have an upset stomach for whatever reason...but it will be much more sporadic and few and far between. Whereas, with kava, for me, it's close to 100% certainty.

I'm not blaming this entirely on kava though, I didn't expect the majority of people to have it as bad as me. I think this is a combination of a personal 'gut-biome' issue or a genetic issue that reacts to the kava in a minority of us.

 

[sɥɐʞɐs]

Have you tried drinking it in a more concentrated form to reduce the amount of liquid you consume?

I drink it about as concentrated as it can be for kneading. 8+ tablespoon mixed in 475 - 600 mL water. (2 - 2.5 cups)

 

[sɥɐʞɐs]

And what do you strain it with? Do you use any chasers?

I strain with a strong nylon bag...I've experimented with everything over the years. I've settled at 100 micron. I've tried 75 micron...120...150...200. I've used nylon stockings, i've used paint strainers, thin socks, double lined fijian cloth strainers, nut milk bags and industrial nylon strainers. I prefer some brands of nut milk bags and the industrial nylon strainers because there very durable, not very flexible and water resistant.

I believe the issue could be largely or at least partially resolved if the effect of 3-5 Tablespoons of root was effective on me like it is on many others. Also, this is much less of a problem with fresh root. Not that fresh root never made me feel moments of nausea, it did, but it was typically much more transient rather than the long slow deep grinding nausea I get with dry powder. Fresh kava also had the benefit of being MUCH stronger, while simultaneously containing much less sludge/particulates than dry kava. I'm probably a bit more accepting of the negative GI effects when I'm also being given a properly strong kava buzz. But even when dry kava does give me sufficiently good effects, it's often after drudging through a period of time with major discomfort, worse than that of a similar level of buzz on fresh root. Surprisingly though, I found that fresh kava gave me even more appetite suppression than dry kava...but maybe that correlates with stronger high.

My typical chasers are either pineapple, mango, cheese, capers or chips (crisps). I usally have juice or a soft drink on hand too.

 

[SelfBiasResistor]

I'm surprised how many people consider the appetite suppression a big negative. I do enjoy eating a good dinner, or joyfully grubbing down at night like I can on alcohol, but I generally consider appetite suppression a neutral or sometimes a positive (for weight loss purposes). When I do find it negative, is when the suppression is largely brought on by my very unpleasant kava-induced nausea & bloating. -- I still have breakfast and lunch to pig out, I don't really mind missing out on an excessive american dinner.

I feel the appetite suppression the most when I am also more nauseated and bloated. It's not as much that I like to eat large meals but I do enjoy cooking and it's a disappointment when I can't enjoy my good work because I'm feeling too sick after or while drinking. When pain levels allow, I also like to weight lift and it's important to load up with enough protein and other nutrients later in the day.

For me, the nausea and bloating is nothing new. I've always struggled to get my seemingly large doses down but in the first few years, I didn't notice it that much because the effects I felt from the kava was so strong and pleasant that it was worth it. I always got great sleep and if I felt too sick, I could just end the day by laying down and sleeping deeply all night. The closest I can come to that now is with Stone or Nangol/Supreme blended (if I'm wanting to stay in the noble realm). I feel strongly that it is at least partly due to changes in the root available now (lower KLs) rather than just a tolerance or inability to absorb KLs. If it were just tolerance, I would eventually hit a dose high enough to feel it and if I were unable to digest KLs, I wouldn't get close to satisfactory results from the strongest products out there.

 

[PepperyPyrone]

The only negative I have noticed lately is heart palpitations when I drink coffee. I literally only need a few sips of coffee to get the effect I used to have from two cups. Heart palpitations are not fun, albeit safe. I mostly drink Squanch everyday and have not noticed anything else except that. If I do have a light beer or two after drinking kava to refresh and counter the edginess and sometimes insomnia, I mostly notice the strange rash when I drink Vanuatu kavas, Fijians are much more forgiving on that front. BULA !

 

[ProjectK]

I forgot to mention the farts. Holy hell the farts. Still worth it 100.

 

[recentreturn]

I forgot to mention the farts. Holy hell the farts. Still worth it 100.

You might find that this is dependent on the kind of strainer bag and variety of kava you use. The first one or two batches of Kava Bati used to give me absolutely terrible gas, which I think was because those batches were VERY finely ground (so much so that I noticed a significant decrease in the volume of root left in my bag after kneading); later batches seemed a little courser and didn't cause this problem. Other varieties also weren't as bad w/regard to gas.

 

[SelfBiasResistor]

Do you get the same effect from super heady (read: very little DHM) kavas?
These days I usually drink kava with 5 in the last position. My current favourite has a ratio of K to DHM of nearly 4 and gives me zero nausea. i dont even need to use a chaser .

I feel like a big part of the nausea/sick stomach factor has to do with a combination of sediment and how well cleaned and peeled the roots are. For me, heavy/high DHM kava has never caused more nausea than low DHM kava. That's been part of my frustration with all the product marketing claiming noble kava doesn't cause nausea when it does. Besides making weak kava stronger, another reason I always keep Stone or Supreme on hand for blending is that I seem to get a reduction in overall side effects when the DHM levels are upped. I'm not as likely to have visual disturbances, less overall stomach discomfort and get far superior anxiety, pain and insomnia relief. Part of this may be that I can consume less root to get the desired effects, I can space my shells further apart and don't need to prep it as thick. I firmly believe at this point that DHM balances kavain in a very good way for some of us.

 

[Intrepidus_dux]

The literature, science, traditional knowledge etc disagree with your assessment, but I guess we are all different, so it's possible for you to feel this or that way regardless of how most people feel.

I'd also point out that contrary to what you might believe in, according to many COAs posted for what I think is often the kava that is sold as "stone" or "supreme", it is much higher in kavain and dhk than dhm. Obviously this varies from batch to batch.

Do you disagree with the strainer bag and sediment statements too or just the kavalactone ideas?

 

[SelfBiasResistor]

The literature, science, traditional knowledge etc disagree with your assessment, but I guess we are all different, so it's possible for you to feel this or that way regardless of how most people feel.

I'd also point out that contrary to what you might believe in, according to many COAs posted for what I think is often the kava that is sold as "stone" or "supreme", it is much higher in kavain and dhk than dhm. Obviously this varies from batch to batch.

I am aware that the noble heavyweights do contain much more K than DHM and that's the way it should be. For me, high K/moderate DHM does not mean worse nausea (or other side effects) than I would experience with the common moderate(or low) K/low DHM product on the market. DHM being #3 or #4 AND being of significant quantity makes a highly desirable drink for me. It's also not uncommon for people to experience significant nausea from kava featuring higher levels of K and low DHM so there is more to the science of kava side effects than K to DHM ratio.

 

[Zaphod]

I'm surprised how many people consider the appetite suppression a big negative. I do enjoy eating a good dinner, or joyfully grubbing down at night like I can on alcohol, but I generally consider appetite suppression a neutral or sometimes a positive (for weight loss purposes). When I do find it negative, is when the suppression is largely brought on by my very unpleasant kava-induced nausea & bloating. -- I still have breakfast and lunch to pig out, I don't really mind missing out on an excessive american dinner.


I do agree humans have a tendency to blame things on the supernatural, or minorities, or the 'new thing' or what they don't yet understand...but this is definitely not what's going on with me and my stomach issues with kava. I've been drinking kava for a long time, the massive bloat and nausea and sickening feeling I get comes on after I consume kava, it's very clear, very direct, very predictable and absolutely not just a natural ebb and flow. If i drink alcohol instead of kava or stay sober, I don't experience the same issues...in that case over a span of time, then yeah there will eventually be some nights here and there where I naturally will have an upset stomach for whatever reason...but it will be much more sporadic and few and far between. Whereas, with kava, for me, it's close to 100% certainty.

I'm not blaming this entirely on kava though, I didn't expect the majority of people to have it as bad as me. I think this is a combination of a personal 'gut-biome' issue or a genetic issue that reacts to the kava in a minority of us.

@sɥɐʞɐs I have definitely had intermittent gastrointestinal issues like you describe where I feel very bloated, full, and nausea - but a different nausea then normal over consumption nausea. This is more a direct stomach issue then the what I call normal heady kava nausea. I found that a combination of gas-x (simethicone), antacids and high quality probiotics have helped get me back to normal when it did hit. The simethicone is very much an immediate relief (~1/2hr after taking) and then I follow up with several days of proboitcs to get me back to normal. Antiacid is sometimes helpful but usually only if I ate a bunch of crap right after my kava and now I have that as well - but not usually a direct cause of the kava.
I will admit that for a long time I thought the probiotic craze was nothing but a new "health" fad but a few years ago my wife had issues and went to a top-notch gastroenterologist. In addition to many other things she was prescribed probiotics and it definitely helped her (as part of an overall diet change). I probably should use them more often but tend to forget - but I have found them very helpful to get over stomach issues quickly. In fact I could probably throw them right in with my kava...

 

[Summer]

When I first started drinking kava, my sessions were always wonderful. Chatty, carefree, no anxiety, etc. Now, I find myself thinking about if it's working, thinking about how I can't really afford to be drinking this, wondering if I really need it anymore. It was such a life-saver to me coming off of Klonopin.

Have you tried ginger? The real, raw, organic root? I chop a tiny piece off and chew it up and eat it. It works every single time for my stomach nausea. A little goes a long way.

 

[Zac Imiola (Herbalist)]

I still feel kava but the time has come for me to relax about it lol. Take it slower and enjoy it when I want it and just be grateful it doesn't punish you by being addictive so I actually can enjoy it in moderation unlike all my other vices throughout my life

 

[tarragon]

Exactly. I'm still procrastinating starting a thread about this; but I've run into enough fragments of information to make me seriously wonder what the average person in the south pacific would really think about the way that we are consuming kava (including also things like using blenders and drinking it alone). An example of one article that makes me wonder about this is here: http://www.health.gov.fj/?page_id=3783
It just seems like there is plenty of room for discussion about what is and isn't "too much;" this suggests to me that the average person in the South Pacific is not downing 10 tbs worth of kava on a daily basis, much less doing so in 2 strong shells standing alone in their kitchen.

[Speaking of which, I just put deodorant on and my armpits feel like they are on fire. That's a reliable indicator that I am due for a non-optional dermo break.]

Try using honey on your pits instead of deodorant. It works a charm squelching odors before they start and it relieves the pain of a rash and helps it clear up more quickly.(raw unfiltered honey, preferably organic)

 

[SelfBiasResistor]

Perhaps not uncommon, but def less common than in the case of high DHM kava, which is my point.

You also claim you experience this or that from kavas with this or that level of DHM or other lactones. On what are you basing your actual knowledge of kavalactone concentration? Even if we were to assume that the chemotype listed alongside the product's name was accurate and correct for every bag of every batch (which is certainly not guaranteed), the actual concentrations of specific kavalactones matter perhaps even more than the chemotype. And few vendors post HPLC results of their kava for every batch.
How do you know how much DHM or DHK does you current bag of supreme have?

Yep, lack of batch testing and/or the sharing of results is still an issue so all we have to go by is what the vendors are willing to show us but kavain and DHM are two KLs that are easily felt when they are present, especially in significant qualities. FWIW, I have not noticed a significant difference in stomach discomfort whether the product is certified noble, generally known to be not noble or unlabeled but having strong DHM effects into the afternoon of the next day. My stomach discomfort, probably 95% of the time, occurs during drinking and wears off a couple hours after I stop even if the heavy KLs are still in full effect.

 

[recentreturn]

Try using honey on your pits instead of deodorant. It works a charm squelching odors before they start and it relieves the pain of a rash and helps it clear up more quickly.(raw unfiltered honey, preferably organic)

Man, that sounds like a practical joke; but thank you. I actually found that if I use an antiperspirant version instead of the regular, its not as bad. Also, topical application of coconut oil seems to help in general. But it doesn't change the fact that I'm due for a dermo break.

 

[tarragon]

Try using honey on your pits instead of deodorant. It works a charm squelching odors before they start and it relieves the pain of a rash and helps it clear up more quickly.(raw unfiltered honey, preferably organic)

Oh no, I feel a new headline coming on: Florida man camping wakes up to find She-bear in tent licking his armpits. Blames it on kava.