Question about koniak and other 'heavy' kavas

[kavacurious]

Right good info again, but playing devil's advocate can't we say that it can't be SUPER toxic if these so called reputable vendors have been selling it for who knows how long years now right? And many ppl have been buying the tudeis without a care for toxicity and no reports of serious problems have arisen. Surely if they were THAT bad then there would be constant complaints to the vendors of hospitalization etc, reports to the news and the vendors would want to take them off the market for fear of legal issues.

Also guys on here have stated they take regular liver tests and I imagine some of them, as kavvaseurs, will have dabbled with tudeis as well in their kava menu.

Now ofc I don't wanna dice with death so I will avoid but Im just sayin' that that proves as a 'naturalistic' study of sorts doesnt it if thats the right term?

Also, out of paradise kava's site and kava by rex, or bkh, which would you recommend as the 'heaviest' which isn't tudei? I picked those 3 cos Id be ordering to UK and they are the ones that ship to UK from the ones Ive looked at so far.

 

[infraredz]

Right good info again, but playing devil's advocate can't we say that it can't be SUPER toxic if these so called reputable vendors have been selling it for who knows how long years now right? And many ppl have been buying the tudeis without a care for toxicity and no reports of serious problems have arisen. Surely if they were THAT bad then there would be constant complaints to the vendors of hospitalization etc, reports to the news and the vendors would want to take them off the market for fear of legal issues.

It is (IMO) the kind of thing that would take a longer amount of time to notice damage from than those products have been on the market for. Also, it is not true that safety claims against kava have not been filed. I am aware of at least one case. Whether it involves tudei or not, I don't know.

Also guys on here have stated they take regular liver tests and I imagine some of them, as kavvaseurs, will have dabbled with tudeis as well in their kava menu.

Yep, but like I said above, I would go out on a limb and say that anyone who has provided clear LFTs have not been drinking tudei regularly, or for a significant amount of time. If anyone here has been drinking tudei more than once a week for more than a year, then please, correct me.[/QUOTE]

Now ofc I don't wanna dice with death so I will avoid but Im just sayin' that that proves as a 'naturalistic' study of sorts doesnt it if thats the right term?

I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say here.

If you are saying that people drinking tudei without ill-effect is a "natural" sort of study, than I would say that's simply incorrect.

Like Lebot and other experts have noted, tudei kava has not been used tradtionally.
As Lebot said in the thread I linked you to, and as Chris and Adil can attest to, these kavas are not consumed by the natives.

Even when they don't consume noble kava, they consume a class of kava termed "medicinal" which still has far less FKB in it than tudei kava. This medicinal kava is very, very rarely used.

Also, out of paradise kava's site and kava by rex, or bkh, which would you recommend as the 'heaviest' which isn't tudei? I picked those 3 cos Id be ordering to UK and they are the ones that ship to UK from the ones Ive looked at so far.

Boroguru by BKH is a favorite of many here, and is definitely a heavy kava, but isn't tudei. It can be consumed every day without ill-effect and is a traditional and "favorite" kava of Vanuatu. PK's Hawaiian (not ISA) is very nice, but it is very "Hawaiian" in nature, meaning it is much more heady than heavy. Still, a great kava. Also, when they have fresh frozen available, that is by far some of the best kava you can get. It is definitely worth the price.

Honestly, I haven't been willing to try anything by KBR after two very negative experiences (with low potency) and others here have confirmed this so I would say ordering from him is a gamble right now. It's a shame because his "Van 3" used to be great.

 

[Deleted User01]

KavaKurious, let me give you a real life example that I used earlier in the week. Let's say you accidentally drank some Tudie Kava because somebody spiked it or maybe you did it on purpose. So the next day you are still in a cloudy fog. Your brain is still being effected by the very potent two-day Kava. However, you have a Job Interview today. It's the chance of a lifetime! Too bad you are going to be showing up Half-Crocked. That's ok, my son is interviewing for the same Job so we are doing high fives over here.

That's one of the real life problems with a two-day Kava. I hate to think what would happen if you were a crane operator or a train engineer (of a runaway train).

 

[Gourmet Hawaiian Kava]

Also, out of paradise kava's site and kava by rex, or bkh, which would you recommend as the 'heaviest' which isn't tudei? I picked those 3 cos Id be ordering to UK and they are the ones that ship to UK from the ones Ive looked at so far.

@kavacurious I also ship anywhere in the world as long as it is legal. My Moi and the Hiwa is a good heady but heavy kava, also the new Papa Ele Ele is a good one to produce the heavy kava effects. Aloha.

Chris

 

[kavadude]

Right good info again, but playing devil's advocate can't we say that it can't be SUPER toxic if these so called reputable vendors have been selling it for who knows how long years now right? And many ppl have been buying the tudeis without a care for toxicity and no reports of serious problems have arisen. Surely if they were THAT bad then there would be constant complaints to the vendors of hospitalization etc, reports to the news and the vendors would want to take them off the market for fear of legal issues.

Also guys on here have stated they take regular liver tests and I imagine some of them, as kavvaseurs, will have dabbled with tudeis as well in their kava menu.

Now ofc I don't wanna dice with death so I will avoid but Im just sayin' that that proves as a 'naturalistic' study of sorts doesnt it if thats the right term?

Also, out of paradise kava's site and kava by rex, or bkh, which would you recommend as the 'heaviest' which isn't tudei? I picked those 3 cos Id be ordering to UK and they are the ones that ship to UK from the ones Ive looked at so far.

Same with alcohol and tylenol. You never know when somebody is going to have hepatitis, fatty liver disease or decides to wash down a couple of tudei shells with a few beers or something. That's probably how we ended up with kava implicated in liver damage in the first place. So no...it's probably not SUPER TOXIC. But it's still playing with fire.

BKH: Nambawan, Boroguru, Melo melo.

 

[infraredz]

Also, on second thought (about "heavy" noble kavas), if Boroguru is out of stock you could:

1. Order Borogu- It's incredibly similar
2. Order Boroguru "100% Lateral Roots" from NobleKava

 

[kavacurious]

Great info guys thanks. Feel I've learned a lot in the past few days . I feel I can make a more informed decision now. Ye boroguru was high on my list of the ones I'd like to try. I might jsut wait 'till its back in stock. I'm not in a hurry.

 

[kavacurious]

Im a little confused about whether this 'tudei' issue as being the cause of liver toxicity is a new finding or is it just the same one as the original hypothesis for how the germans got sick?

I mean i knew of those isolated incidents about the germans getting ill, but that was said to be down to use of parts other than lateral roots and/or the reifning process is that correct?

Now is this 'tudei hypothesis' another more recent theory again or is it one and the same as that original postulation?

Those videos by lebot are as recent as oct 2013 so hot off the press or is that just the testing method thats new rather then the idea as to the cause?

 

[TidyMinion]

I am interested in trying these heavier ones for the sleep aspects and to really chill me out and relax me rather than more upbeat strains.

A concern arises though that some ppl review them as 'melting your face off' and 'contemplating the meaning of words for hours'.

That reminds me of weed and I really despise weed for that reason, it has the opposite effect of chilling me out as I just get stuck in what feels like infinite thought loops and just worry and worry.

Ive recently gotten an appreciation for GABA related mental effects from benzoes once or twice but also from stuff like picamilon and kava. I have come to get a sense of the trend between these when GABA is being acted upon. I love the effect of how it totally shuts down my usual constant mental chatter like really dialing down the volume so my field of perception is really reduced to only a cpl of feet in front of me.

So are the heavier kavas still like that or do they also make you think more? I have already been told I have extreme form of generlaised anxiety disorder and want something to make me think LESS not more.

So Im asking does heavy also imply mentally heavy in terms of what you think about or is that just related to the body effects?

Also another issue Ive had when using kava is it only lasted 10-20 mins and it was almost completely worn off, tho my sources were just random ppl off ebay so surely not the best. Generally tho ive read it only last about an hour max, is that also true with these heavier ones? cos it seems like it might be less so. I find it really annoying having to redose every few mins when i want something to chill out and especially to sleep ofc.

Kinda late to the game on this one but i'll throw in my 2 cents. I think it's wise to distance kava from the effects of other, legal and quasi/non-legal substances. Once you get to know kava it is a singular experience. That said, I will say I've used different substances/supplements in my search for taking the edge off my anxiety and kava beats out the others by miles.

I tend to not drink the body-load kavas so much as I enjoy the more pronounced mental effects of kavain-plentiful kava. It's a mental relaxtion and clear mindedness all in one. Think of your mind like a muscle. You need to relax and stretch it out to maintain or expand elasticity/flexibility. Kava does that for me in a some way. Kind of a weird analogy but hopefully I'm getting my point across.

Oh, and regarding the body load kavas - i think someone suggested starting with Boroguru. That's a good place to start since it's not a real muscle melting type of kava but you should feel the difference between that and say, a good Fijian waka...Personally, I found that regularly drinking Boroguru didn't really help my anxiety so much and sometimes made me weirdly on edge. Good luck finding what works for you!

 

[infraredz]

Im a little confused about whether this 'tudei' issue as being the cause of liver toxicity is a new finding or is it just the same one as the original hypothesis for how the germans got sick?
I mean I knew of those isolated incidents about the germans getting ill, but that was said to be down to use of parts other than lateral roots and/or the refining process is that correct?
Now is this 'tudei hypothesis' another more recent theory again or is it one and the same as that original postulation?
Those videos by lebot are as recent as oct 2013 so hot off the press or is that just the testing method thats new rather then the idea as to the cause?

It has been suspected as a possible mechanism of the hepatotoxicity that was found back then.

However, and this is important, I cannot say that anyone has been able to prove that it was due to tudei kava alone. However, we have evidence that they did use tudei kava, and encouraged the propagation of it due to its "efficiency" in producing kava for their purposes. This has been well documented. It is also been shown that FKB (which if found in much, much higher amounts in tudei kava) is a potent hepatotoxin, and generally cytotoxic substance in general.

However, the nutraceutical companies also used the above ground (aerial) portions of the plant, which contains Pipermethystine which is toxic, and not found in the rhizome (root). Also, they used strong nonpolar solvents for extraction, and this has been well documented to show a higher percentage of all Kavalactones, Flavokavains. This is another important part of that, only water has been found to extract glutathione compared to all solvents.

There is also the potential for mold toxins, such as aflatoxins that could have been the issue.

The research is actually moving quite quickly, that much is sure. There are a few things that I would describe as "new", including the colorimetric solvent test.

Sources:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22585547
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21756963
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21442674
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21377431
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21112196
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18540613

 

[kavacurious]

Ok, so my main question is that there havent been any NEW cases of liver problems since those few back in the early millenium?

If so was kava the only thing in question cos if not that throws their validity out the window really doesnt it.

What is the total at a rough guess, and adding this up how does this compare to other common substances to perhaps put it better in perspective vs other things. Because when you are only looking at where its caused problems it kind of skews your thinking when in fact ppl die of paracetamol, alcohol etc all the time so statistically how would kava compare to the others?

 

[infraredz]

Yes, I am aware of at least one open, current case with the FDA regarding Kava, though I don't know the specifics off the top of my head.

Who knows how many cases there actually have been, stateside or otherwise due to the inevitability of poor patient self-reporting that is endemic in the west.

You are totally correct about concurrent usage of other substances, benign though the user may feel. Because kava's pharmacology is so complex as well as accounting for idiosyncracies and genetic predispositions, there is undoubtedly cases that are not purely reflective of kava specifically.

However, and this is where I get flack, I feel that we as consumers and as a community need think prophylactically. As the experts can attest to, once there is one claim made by someone (especially if it is a hepatic injury/disease), with the negative connotation that is so firmly in place, we could be looking at the shutdown of the kava industry in the states and EU.

The truth is, no one knows the comparative toxicity of tudei kava to substances like APAP (though I am talking with Dr. Xing).
What we do know is that aqueous extractions of noble kava is completely safe.


We shouldn't be thinking of how many cases of hepatic pathologies there are due to kava, but rather how we can prevent cases of hepatic pathologies due to kava.

 

[kavacurious]

What we do know is that aqueous extractions of noble kava is completely safe.

How do we 'know' this? I see what your saying better to show the arguments for rather than against so in that vein I indeed ask for the evidence for.

 

[infraredz]

Sure thing.

Dr. Vincent Lebot:

Water extraction, conducted since thousands of years in the Pacific, is the safest way to go

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22585547
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21112196
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21756963
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21377431 [This was published before the in vivo study showing FKB to be hepatotoxic]

Kava Historically Safe “As A Water Extract”

 

[kavacurious]

I was thinking that isnt it rather implausible to think that the natives didnt also take this tudei (whether they called it tudei or not) stuff?

because I was watching a kava documentary which said how among the different islands its like a competition betweeen them who can produce the strongest kava.

Surely they would jump at the chance of getting the most powerful blend with which to show off as their flagship.

And ofc they wouldnt have the scientific testing methods which have been used recently to distinguish between good and bad kavas; they would jsut know that was the strongest blend and would naturally been drawn towards those strains.

That is just basic conditioning that anything that works youll be more drawn to and whatever works better youd be more drawn to that thing.

 

[kavadude]

Historically, they don't drink tudei. There is some suggestion that they occasionally drink tudei for medicinal purposes, but even then it's not clear whether they were using tudei varieties or noble medicinal varieties. That's why it's been illegal to export it from Vanuatu since 2002. It's only with nutraceutical companies buying tons and tons of kava that tudei is being exported.

They also drink water extractions of the root only, then you look at companies grinding up entire kava plants and extracting them with nonpolar solvents. The recommendation to drink water extractions of noble kava root is based on thousands of years of trial and error. Given that Pacific Islanders who use kava heavily do not have a higher incidence of hepatotoxicity than those who do not, we have to look at what the Europeans are doing differently in order to determine potential causes of liver damage, and that includes using tudei kava.

 

[Gourmet Hawaiian Kava]

I was thinking that isnt it rather implausible to think that the natives didnt also take this tudei (whether they called it tudei or not) stuff?

because I was watching a kava documentary which said how among the different islands its like a competition betweeen them who can produce the strongest kava.

Surely they would jump at the chance of getting the most powerful blend with which to show off as their flagship.

And ofc they wouldnt have the scientific testing methods which have been used recently to distinguish between good and bad kavas; they would jsut know that was the strongest blend and would naturally been drawn towards those strains.

That is just basic conditioning that anything that works youll be more drawn to and whatever works better youd be more drawn to that thing.

I need to make sure that you know the difference between tudei kava and noble kava. When we say that the tudei kava is stronger it is true but there are noble kava varieties that are also strong and just as high in total kavalactone content.

The difference is that the tudei kava is higher in Dyhydrokavain (DHK) and Dyhydromethisticin (DHM), it is these doublebonded kavalactones that make the effects you get from the kava drink too strong and very unpleasant. It will depend on the tuday variety too. For example, when it comes to Isa, there are people that drink it. But when it comes to its sister Iwi, nobody drinks that. When I say that some people drink it, I am not talking about the South Pacific people because they know better. I am referring to people elsewhere in the world that buy the Isa and other tudei kava to drink.

Again this is the less potent form of the tudei kava, but there are a lot of people that can not drink Isa without getting sick. I am one of them and there are only a few that can handle the Isa.

The Noble kava is different. The chemotype can change a lot and give you kava with different effects and some can be considered strong but it is not a tudei kava. The Chemotype is the way you can tell what concentration of each kavalactone there is in that kava and that way you can see if it is a tudei kava or not.

The Noble kava can be strong with a head effect, and those tend to be the kava that is high in Kavain. Also note that even if you want to get a strong body effect you can still get it with a high Kavain kava, all you need to do is drink more. That way you are giving yourself more of the DHK and DHM, but not too much like the tudei kava has. The kavain acts quickly once you drink it, usually reaching its max in about 5-10 min. The DHK and DHM act much slower and they will kick in at about 20-40 min.

You are correct that in the Pacific Island the people who would compete to see who grows the strongest kava, but they are talking about noble kava. They know if they were to drink the tudei kava it would give them undesirable effects.

So again after hundreds or even thousands of years of using kava they know what is best and the Noble kava is the best.

Now in modern day we are just finding out that the Tudei kava is actually bad for you, see this post here----http://www.kavaforums.com/forum/thr...-that-cultivar-is-tudei-kava.2558/#post-25901

This is new evidence that we have that shows that the Tudei kava is bad for your liver.
I hope that this shows you the difference between the Tudei and Noble kava and please let me know if you have any questions and I can go into more detail. Aloha.

Chris