Question for members.

[The Kap'n]

In the spirit of keeping kava as pure as possible in the eyes of those who seek to poke holes, I present a question.

Should we allow a vendor that openly sells and advertises K@ side by side with kava?

I ask this question because a kava vendor we have listed here just placed an advertisement on facebook which advertises K@, and also invites users to ask how they can "Chase the dragon".

As a community driven site, I would like to get a collective vision on what we can tolerate, and what we cannot. Of course our participation or non-participation may have little to do with the bottom lines of said company, but I'm more interested in how we conduct ourselves as a kava loving community.

Yours,
The Kap'm

 

[HeadHodge]

In the spirit of keeping kava as pure as possible in the eyes of those who seek to poke holes, I present a question.

Should we allow a vendor that openly sells and advertises K@ side by side with kava?

I ask this question because a kava vendor we have listed here just placed an advertisement on facebook which advertises K@, and also invites users to ask how they can "Chase the dragon".

As a community driven site, I would like to get a collective vision on what we can tolerate, and what we cannot. Of course our participation or non-participation may have little to do with the bottom lines of said company, but I'm more interested in how we conduct ourselves as a kava loving community.

Yours,
The Kap'm

Hi,

Well last time I looked (last night in fact), the name of this site is "KavaForums.com", not "KratomForums" or "Kava+K@ Forums". I don't think it should be prohibited to speak the word K@ here, but it's another thing to endorse it. So I'm thinking that it's ok for them to be a member here, but not as an "approved Vendor". By allowing them to have a forum here to promote their wares, is an implicit endorsement of their products.

So bottom line, if it's not already in the forum terms and conditions, it should have a clause that "only" approved vendors may have their own forum on this site and promote their wares. And one of the conditions is that they can't sell or promote other substances that the forum (that would be you) deems to be contrary to the goals and purposes of said forum.

Then say to the vendor, when they conform to the guidelines of the forum, they would be welcomed back with open arms.

 

[HeadHodge]

To further elaborate.... I think that in fact there should be a mechanism on this site to WARN members of potential vendors that are deemed to sell inferior or questionable stuff, because there are a lot vendors out there selling crap and we should have a good way to Alert members that they might want to stay away from their product(s). I mean we spend a ton of time rating and recommending good Kava for members to buy. It's a "big" thing that everyone wants to know. And we should do the same for the crappy stuff too and have a way to have Negative Ratings. Something like a way for members to say "This is the best Kava" but "This is the worst Kava". If it would help I could even create a section, in The Kavapedia Digest with a tag for something like "Kava ALERT" or similar. I'm sure there's multiple ways to do this, but hopefully you get my meaning.

 

[Global Kava Exports]

I'm not sure I'm posting here long enough to be able give opinions on matters such as these but I'll say something anyway.
The reason I like this forum is that it is a Kava forum, nothing else. Sure, people talk about other substances but only in relation to Kava and I like this.
Even if I was not a Kava supplier I would still make this my forum of choice. Whether I was allowed to advertise or not - Kava Forums is the best place to discuss Kava.

This vendor who is also supplying K@ and using questionable language (ie Chasing the dragon) is obviously free to sell whatever he wants but perhaps they shouldn't be listed here. These forums are often the source for any journalists or government employees who seek information on substances and seeing K@ for sale alongside Kava will give the uneducated browser of this forum the impression that Kava and K@ are in some way compatible or are associated with each other. We know that they are not but we all know how people writing articles or gathering information for government authorities do their work and it's usually done very sloppily.

In my humble opinion, if you are not selling Kava or Kava related products then this might not be the best place for you. If you are selling other products then keep them separate, build a different website or sell them under a different profile and don't confuse newcomers or other eyes which browse these forums.

Christ, I came across very condescending there, sorry about that. I can't think of a better way to word it though.

 

[infraredz]

Hi,

Well last time I looked (last night in fact), the name of this site is "KavaForums.com", not "KratomForums" or "Kava+K@ Forums". I don't think it should be prohibited to speak the word K@ here, but it's another thing to endorse it. So I'm thinking that it's ok for them to be a member here, but not as an "approved Vendor". By allowing them to have a forum here to promote their wares, is an implicit endorsement of their products.

So bottom line, if it's not already in the forum terms and conditions, it should have a clause that "only" approved vendors may have their own forum on this site and promote their wares. And one of the conditions is that they can't sell or promote other substances that the forum (that would be you) deems to be contrary to the goals and purposes of said forum.

I completely agree, except for the discussion of K@, which, a while ago on the old forum, became quite a bit of an issue with people even confusing one for the other. I think that K@ should not be allowed to be discussed, other than in a very narrow scope (like treating K@ addiction with kava). Even then, the slope is slippery, but based on what I saw going on in the old forum a while back, I think that just like discussion of other substances, K@ discussion should not be allowed except in a very narrow scope.

Anyways, I agree with HeadHodge and Global Kava Exports. I think that HeadHodge put it best: "By allowing them to have a forum here to promote their wares, is an implicit endorsement of their products."

The fact that K@ has recently come under a massive amount of very negative media attention (including mentions of kava bars that sell K@), the more separation we can have between kava and K@, the better. Furthermore, K@ is already banned in a handful of states and seems to be moving towards being banned outright and therefore, kava should be separated from K@ in order to preserve the "legality" aspect of Kava. Even though it's only a few states that have banned it, now that it's started to be seen as a "legal high" along with Bath Salts and Spice (which is unfortunate, don't get me wrong) any association with kava would hurt the image we are portraying for kava.

In all honesty, back in the old days on the old forum, I would have been less worried based on the fact that K@ has a low(er) profile in the media and populace at large. Now though, it should not be associated in any way with kava, which includes a vendor that sells K@ (especially with that terminology, jeez).

 

[HeadHodge]

It might be a good idea, to post a sticky in each forum that is something like "If you post in this forum, you implicitly agree to our terms and conditions". That's done all the time when you install other peoples software on your computer.

Just throwing that out there.

 

[TidyMinion]

It's too bad that we here have to take probably a more drastic AND proactive measure involving a situation such as this just based on the fact that a lot of media and those in the general public don't really take the time to read and investigate further how different kava and K@ really are from each other. They are both plants and are spelled with a "K". How did they get lumped together otherwise? I just don't get it.

I forgot who posted that news clip recently about the establishment in N.C. that sold both side by side but it's too bad that vendors (either represented here in some fashion or just in general) don't take more precautions in the product they are selling and the health/legal factors involved. That, and use language that doesn't sensationalize the product or cop druggie lingo to look cool and move inventory. Don't really have any suggestions to speak of, just putting that out there i guess. Just sucks that something that works as medicine for so many people with so few actual side effects (itchy skin I can handle that) may end up vilified due to sheer ignorance and/or misuse alongside another, less reputable, substance.

 

[TidyMinion]

Something else, thinking more about it...it's not the end of the world if that vendor doesn't have a place here on the forums anymore. If people like their kava enough they'll continue to buy it but I think if this site is becoming more and more visible internet/media-wide then a mission statement/terms of use might be the best thing for us. Maybe even part of that document be a recitation of it's traditional/historic use with no reports of parallel bad effects save for dry skin. Maybe even more upfront links to controlled studies/research showing the positive qualities of kava and the very limited side effects. It's up to us as a large Kava-based community that we are adamantly opposing the inclusion of Kava alongside other supplements/plants of dubious (or just different) nature and we do our part to inform and educate those seeking out trustworthy information.

 

[The Kap'n]

I'm actually wondering if it was a mistake at this point. This kava establishment which I shall not publicly name has a reputation for serving excellent kava varieties of real quality. I know personally that they were selling K@ on the side because honestly I saw them doing it in a video on youtube, but they never published anything publicly stating they carried it until now.

 

[Deleted User01]

I think we have to stick with Vendors whose main business is Kava. For example, I love Mood and Mind but they are big K@ Sellers and they offer Kava as an afterthought along with a bunch of other botanicals. I hate to stifle anyone's business but we have to stick to our guns. They can post on DRUGS.COM.

 

[HeadHodge]

I think we have to stick with Vendors whose main business is Kava. For example, I love Mood and Mind but they are big K@ Sellers and they offer Kava as an afterthought along with a bunch of other botanicals. I hate to stifle anyone's business but we have to stick to our guns. They can post on DRUGS.COM.

I don't think we have to be like PITA who go after people like Lady Gaga for wearing a meat laden dress. We just need to ignore them or speak out our dissent if they are found to be doing bad things. I'm really a believer in helping people make an "informed, educated" decision, but not "forcing" them to think like I do.

 

[HeadHodge]

(it is the only country in the world where the mere possession of any amount of kava means 3 years in jail).

Wow that's harsh. Whey back when...... I was 17 years old in the Air Force stationed in Austin TX and got caught smoking pot from a surprise barracks inspection. It could have been really bad for me, because at the time, smoking pot was a lifetime sentence in Texas Fortunately I was on base where the local state laws don't always apply, and I was spared because during duty hours I was an exemplary soldier.

 

[Gourmet Hawaiian Kava]

I love this forum because it is Kava through and through, it would not be the same if it started to become associated with other herbals. I firmly believe that kava should not be combined with things like K@.
This combination of kava and K@ has a bad reputation already. Keep kava----kava
Aloha.

Chris

 

[infraredz]

Seeing the vast amount of negative press that has come about recently around K@, that is my main concern. Just remember not too long ago there was a ton of sensational stories about kava and K@ being sold at a kava bar and how the couple got addicted (and claiming it was as addictive as heroin) and kava just got lumped in there with it. It was very problematic due to Kava and K@ being associated in the most unfortunate of ways. I remember back then that there was all that talk of addiction, intoxication, and such but even now, a lot (but not all) of the bad K@ press mentions that it's sold at kava bars or mentions kava alongside it as another legal "herbal substance" being used recreationally.

Then, of course, there is the fact that K@ is banned in a few states and looks like it will be moving towards being illegality in others.

 

[Vekta]

I think it would reflect badly on this community if we were somehow seen to be associated with a vendor that sells K@ that has an advertisement such as the one described. I don't believe it's within the best interest of the entire community to allow them vendor status on the forum for this reason.

In general I agree with everyone here. This is a kava forum and I hope it remains true to that purpose.

 

[HeadHodge]

....don't allow them vendor status on the forum....

I was trying to say the same thing, but you said it way better!!

 

[Global Kava Exports]

I agree that we should do our best to make sure nobody associates this forum with K@ or any other "legal highs" for that matter. I have recently read a story about how kava became illegal in Poland (it is the only country in the world where mere possession of any amount of kava means 3 years in jail). Apparently it was sold and advertised by a chain of legal highs shops selling K@, salvia, bath salts, etc. In the eyes of the government (and some bigoted members of the public) the legal highs shops constituted an assault on the Polish "families" and "children". Consequently, the government chose to ban everything that was on the shop's menu, including kava. So all these plants and substances are now on the same list of banned products as hard drugs.

Businesses selling kava together with some other plants that can be considered "legal highs" are a real threat to the kava industry, IMO.

Same thing happened in Portugal. I was there when it happened...what a shame.

 

[TidyMinion]

Seeing the vast amount of negative press that has come about recently around K@, that is my main concern. Just remember not too long ago there was a ton of sensational stories about kava and K@ being sold at a kava bar and how the couple got addicted ...

Since this place was selling the 2 K's side by side, I'm sure some people were probably combining the 2 or alternating drinks when visiting this place. Wouldn't this cause potentiation of the effects of one or the other? Also, would that somehow increase the dependence effect of K@? Not sure of the science behind this but it seems that could cause problems.

 

[Syantaa]

I agree with all others who replied in that Kava and K@ should not be associated with each other, especially on a Kava forum. I would suggest removing their vendor status, but not banning them from our forum.

 

[infraredz]

Since this place was selling the 2 K's side by side, I'm sure some people were probably combining the 2 or alternating drinks when visiting this place. Wouldn't this cause potentiation of the effects of one or the other? Also, would that somehow increase the dependence effect of K@? Not sure of the science behind this but it seems that could cause problems.

That story was a whole other story.... but in short, a couple that was looking for easy money started going to a kava bar that allegedly didn't tell their patrons that there was K@ in their kava (one drink called the "Head Mod"). Essentially, from what I understand, they never really had true, straight kava at the bar because the drink came with K@ in it. The bar owner said he made sure his patrons knew, but there was also evidence that he didn't.

Therefore, the couple got addicted (or dependent, or allegedly addicted) to K@, which in all honesty, does carry some addictive properties. The problem was that all the stories mentioned kava and K@ in the same breath, even calling them "relatives" or something along those lines. Then, kava was basically lumped in with K@ which is really what was the cause of the couple's alleged problems and also what the "experts" said was "as addictive as heroin". Of course, the writers didn't care about portraying a clear picture so there was a ton of yellow journalism and in the end, caused kava and K@ to be put under scrutiny by two active drug addicts.

If anyone wants to see about that story (so as not to derail the thread, though it is relevant), please see this topic:
http://www.kavaforums.com/forum/threads/another-disturbing-story-out-of-south-florida.1621/
and a follow-up shortly thereafter:
http://www.kavaforums.com/forum/threads/getting-punished-for-protecting-the-community.1516/