kl.Likem Kava Tumas
Kava Curious
Anybody have any interesting mind opening experiences with kava? Id love to hear some stories as this herb seems to have the potential to do this.
Shamanistic qualities of kava
- Thread starter kl.Likem Kava Tumas
- Start date
I once read of a specially brewed kava that had shamanistic qualities. methysticin I think would be the responsible lactone. Has that frog shape that MDXXs have.
http://en.wikipedia.org/w...edioxyphenethylamine.svg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Methysticin.png
Sorry, I don't have any stores.
http://en.wikipedia.org/w...edioxyphenethylamine.svg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Methysticin.png
Sorry, I don't have any stores.
kl.Likem Kava Tumas
Kava Curious
sorry allow me to reword, sometimes in the right setting with the right amount of kava it seems as though kava can show you things, take your mind into more spiritual realms as i hear is more common in the pacific islands amongst the tribes and original Polynesians, Melanesians and pac islanders.
i was wondering if anyone else had any expreiences like these?
and stevev are you saying Methysticin makes its more mind altering or mind expanding?
i was wondering if anyone else had any expreiences like these?
and stevev are you saying Methysticin makes its more mind altering or mind expanding?
kl.Gray Owl
Kava Enthusiast
1 = demethoxy-yangonin
2 = dihydrokavain
3 = yangonin
4 = kavain
5 = dihydromethysticin
6 = methysticin
Fu'u is 465213, that's interesting, DHM also has that "frog eyes" chemical structure. I've only really noticed an impact in my dreams as far as that goes, so far anyway. I think part of the problem is going to be that the strains that are higher in DHM or methysticin are going to be more likely to cause side effects such as nausea. Most shamanic concoctions in general are going to make you puke and / or give you diarrhea e.g. iboga, ayahuasca, peyote. There are certain kava chemotypes that are reputed to only be used for rituals and not for recreational uses. I think the addition of ritual elements to the consumption of kava would probably make a difference.
OK pp 76-78 of "Kava: The Pacific Elixir" seems to be the relevant bit, "chemotypes 521634 and 526341 represent cultivars that are rarely consumed... When ingested, plants of these chemotypes produce an unpleasant nausea owing to their very high proportions of DHM (5) and DHK (2), the two most potent kavalactones." The cultivars that are listed are kau, vambu, buara and bo, have never seen those anywhere for sale.
2 = dihydrokavain
3 = yangonin
4 = kavain
5 = dihydromethysticin
6 = methysticin
Fu'u is 465213, that's interesting, DHM also has that "frog eyes" chemical structure. I've only really noticed an impact in my dreams as far as that goes, so far anyway. I think part of the problem is going to be that the strains that are higher in DHM or methysticin are going to be more likely to cause side effects such as nausea. Most shamanic concoctions in general are going to make you puke and / or give you diarrhea e.g. iboga, ayahuasca, peyote. There are certain kava chemotypes that are reputed to only be used for rituals and not for recreational uses. I think the addition of ritual elements to the consumption of kava would probably make a difference.
OK pp 76-78 of "Kava: The Pacific Elixir" seems to be the relevant bit, "chemotypes 521634 and 526341 represent cultivars that are rarely consumed... When ingested, plants of these chemotypes produce an unpleasant nausea owing to their very high proportions of DHM (5) and DHK (2), the two most potent kavalactones." The cultivars that are listed are kau, vambu, buara and bo, have never seen those anywhere for sale.
kl.Gray Owl
Kava Enthusiast
Gray Owl said:
Likem Kava Tumas, I don't know. But, from my 4 months of drinking kava I think it has the power to both alter and expand your mind. Not in the same sense that psychedelics have, but in the way meditating (only), a good lecture or a good jog can. That's the best I can describe it. It's really quite different from anything else though.
Gray Owl, now I really want try the fu'u. I'm a cheap skate, so when I saw the borogu for 25$ a lb, I went whatever. I then read on here that it's among the best... I'll manage to get it sometime now (Yay)
How does the fu'u effect dreams? I'm sort of a dream fanatic. I was going to get some Mexican dream herb, but every store that sells it looks sketchy or overpriced. Anyways.
Has anyone here had this religious kava that was referred to? Sounds interesting(Cool02)
Gray Owl, now I really want try the fu'u. I'm a cheap skate, so when I saw the borogu for 25$ a lb, I went whatever. I then read on here that it's among the best... I'll manage to get it sometime now (Yay)
How does the fu'u effect dreams? I'm sort of a dream fanatic. I was going to get some Mexican dream herb, but every store that sells it looks sketchy or overpriced. Anyways.
Has anyone here had this religious kava that was referred to? Sounds interesting(Cool02)
Kojo Douglas
The Kavasseur
Well, let's get something straight here - shamanism can't be a "quality" of something except a shamanistic ritual or experience. Shamanism is an anthropological term used to describe the [cultural belief that refer to the] transformation of a human into a spirit or spirit animal that then goes and seeks knowledge or experience. This is usually at the request of someone looking for answers or guidance. If your intent in using Kava is to have a shamanistic voyage or to aid someone in having a shamanistic voyage, then perhaps you could say see it has "shamanistic qualities."
That being said, Kava in high dosages (especially an Isa or Solomon Islands variety) can definitely give me vivid enough dreams to teach me things about the inner-workings (and preoccupations) of my mind and spirit.
That being said, Kava in high dosages (especially an Isa or Solomon Islands variety) can definitely give me vivid enough dreams to teach me things about the inner-workings (and preoccupations) of my mind and spirit.
Prince Philip
Duke of Edinborogu
If you drink enough kava, you can feel the presence of Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh and holy brother of John Frum, especially if you drink a lot of kava and go onto this forum.
More seriously, I like to listen to Christopher Hitchens, or sometimes Richard Dawkins when I'm in a feisty mood, and get my Atheist on.
I generally try to avoid mixing mind-altering substances and spirituality, but I've failed utterly and converted to the John Frum Movement.
More seriously, I like to listen to Christopher Hitchens, or sometimes Richard Dawkins when I'm in a feisty mood, and get my Atheist on.
I generally try to avoid mixing mind-altering substances and spirituality, but I've failed utterly and converted to the John Frum Movement.
Kojo Douglas
The Kavasseur
Actually, I have quite a lot of respect for comments like this. Spot on.
Sure, some cultures have used mind-altering substances in spiritual practices. But "we" are not one of them. Kava to me is medicine, not spiritual fuel.
I respectfully disagree with this assertion. How about the widespread use of alcohol (wine) in Christianity? It's so important to the religion that it's a holy sacrament. Just playing Devil's advocate (smiley: devil) On the other hand, I do not use kava as a spiritual or shamanistic tool. It's mostly recreation for me, although it does help quiet the mind in meditation.Vesuvio Cat said:
EDIT: I just realized that I was a bit rude in not saying hello to our fearless leader and jumping into a lively debate. Nice to see you around, Vesuvio Cat! Thanks for all of your contributions to the kava community. Your blog was instrumental in helping me learn about the different varieties of kava and I still refer to it fairly often. Hope all is well in Ghana! I always wanted to join the Peace Corps but life had different plans for me. Oh well. Keep up the good work!
Prince Philip
Duke of Edinborogu
There are a few great books on this. My favorite is "Cannibals and Kings," but there's also "Cows, Pigs, Witches and Wars."KarmaG said:
One somewhat popular theory of religion is that it's like barking. Puppies have a "hi, come here and help me" type of whine. Old dogs have a "get the hell away from me" type of growl. You combine the whine and the growl and you get this strange communication called a bark, which is the primary way that domesticated wolves attempt to communicate with humans. With humans, you get religion, which is this strange and primary form of how to communicate with the plants and animals that provide us our foods.
kl.Gray Owl
Kava Enthusiast
Ah, but I'd argue that the ritual is what makes the difference. Just smoking a cigarette or cigar has never changed my life. I have been at pipe ceremonies involving tobacco that changed my life--the set up, intention, and context changes everything. Just drumming can have powerful effects if it's incorporated as part of a ritual. Any mind-altering substance can potentially be used for shamanic work, but you need a ritual. I haven't explored this deeply yet with kava, but it's why I have a beautiful acacia wood bowl that I use exclusively for making kava, it adds something to the process, it will be essential if I do turn it into a ritual. It would be fantastic to have an authentic tanoa, but $300-400 yeesh.KarmaG said:
I recommend the Discovery series Going Tribal highly, there's a method to the whole ritual process and you get to see bits of that on the show.
http://dsc.discovery.com/fansites/goingtribal/goingtribal.html
The Way of The Shaman by Michael Harner and books by Mircea Eliade like Shamanism: Archaic Techniques of Ecstasy are also great sources.
Kojo Douglas
The Kavasseur
Well, to be fair I was responding to whether drinking Kava constituted shamanism - and I don't think your average Catholic priest would describe communion as "shamanism." LOL
By the way, I haven't been a Peace Corps Volunteer for almost five years now. I served from 2005-2007 and am now farming cocoa in Ghana.
By the way, I haven't been a Peace Corps Volunteer for almost five years now. I served from 2005-2007 and am now farming cocoa in Ghana.
Ozzyfan121
Pretentious, Wannabe Philosopher
Mind-altering substances have a very important place in spirituality, or, at least they have for me. Kava, however, is not one of those substances. Some do note the slightest change in spiritual consciousness, although it is always very mild and yields no novel spiritual awakenings. There are more potent psychedelics that maintain the legality of kava. I have had mixed results with H.B. Woodrose seeds, and consistently terrifying, but very introspective and spiritual, results with Salvia Divinorum. I'm not sure how far you're willing to go to attain an enhanced sense of spirituality, but tread carefully.
Kojo Douglas
The Kavasseur
Yes, Kava dreaming is in a league of its own.
RE: Salvia Divinorum. That stuff is bad news and should never be mentioned in association with Kava! The last thing the Kava world needs is for kids to start drinking Kava to "get high."
RE: Salvia Divinorum. That stuff is bad news and should never be mentioned in association with Kava! The last thing the Kava world needs is for kids to start drinking Kava to "get high."
kl.Intotheimpossible
Newbie
Salvia isn't bad news and he wasn't implying that. He was saying how that's what he's got the most spiritual gaining from.
Kava is mainly medicinal for me but gives me very good dreaming that are insightful.
Kava is mainly medicinal for me but gives me very good dreaming that are insightful.
kavalover
Outsider
It's not that he was implying that, it's just that salvia has achieved a reputation as one of the primary "legal highs" in the media spotlight, whereas kava has avoided that label for the most part. When a mind altering substance gets a big rep in the public eye, it's bound to become illegal and have the media propagating it as "dangerous". At least here in America. I can't speak for other nations. I see what Vesuvio Cat meant and why he'd get defensive about that. We just want to keep kava away from that "legal high" scene as long as we can. I personally enjoy salvia's wild ride, but based on it's association with the "legal high" crowd, I now live in one of the few states it is not illegal in yet.
The kava bars that have been spreading throughout the USA have been a great voice for kava in the public eye in that they've lessened teen drinking in college areas as well as provided a peaceful and fun hangout of sorts that will never end in a bar-style fight. THAT'S the reputation we want to see going for it
The kava bars that have been spreading throughout the USA have been a great voice for kava in the public eye in that they've lessened teen drinking in college areas as well as provided a peaceful and fun hangout of sorts that will never end in a bar-style fight. THAT'S the reputation we want to see going for it