Sugar!

[Zaphod]

A case can be made (and even Dr. Lustig has said this) that fructose that occurs naturally in fruit is not as bad for you as refined fructose added to things like soda, mainly just because there is less of it. The fructose itself is exactly the same stuff, but if, for example, you eat an apple you are getting a smaller amount of fructose combined with fiber and other good stuff, but if you drink a sugary drink you are just getting a huge dose of nothing but sugar.

And the carbs vs. fats thing is interesting, and I don't think it is resolved. I tend to lean to the low carb camp, but it does seem that the low-carb advocates often minimize the risks of saturated fat, which IMO are real. On the other hand, the advocates of low-fat diets tend to minimize the problems that eating lots of carbs can cause. People who know more about nutrition than me who I have talked to generally recommend something like a Mediterranean diet: whole grains, healthy fats (fish, nuts, olive oil), fruits, vegetables. Avoid refined sugar and flour.

There are some claims - but I have not seen anything resembling a real study that the fiber in fruit buffers the way insulin responds to the fructose in fruit. So while you still get the insulin response it is not the same spike like drinking a glass of juice. My experience, as anecdotal as it is, is that I have never seen a diet ruined by eating too much fruit.

 

[Zac Imiola (Herbalist)]

When you lay down those percentages you have more than 20 percent content of the agave syrup undisclosed.. where as the others were 5 % and 0 %
This leaves open room for a lot of phytochemical's which as in most plant's contain balancing chemicals toward the "active ingrediant"

I find this interesting.
I also don't see any of those studies having to do with agave syrup. They're about fructose which then is projected onto agave because it's in there .
That's like expecting every caffiene substance to affect you the same because theirs caffeine which we do.. but is obviously misguided.
We get way to caught up on the chemical name and therefore overly project everything that the isolated chemical does onto the plant carrier and say oh that must be bad too . Lol

Look up the chemical composition of the volatile oils in chamomile and then yarrow... see they are practically identical and yet smell different

 

[Groggy]

When you lay down those percentages you have more than 20 percent content of the agave syrup undisclosed.. where as the others were 5 % and 0 %
This leaves open room for a lot of phytochemical's which as in most plant's contain balancing chemicals toward the "active ingrediant"

I find this interesting.
I also don't see any of those studies having to do with agave syrup. They're about fructose which then is projected onto agave because it's in there .
That's like expecting every caffiene substance to affect you the same because theirs caffeine which we do.. but is obviously misguided.
We get way to caught up on the chemical name and therefore overly project everything that the isolated chemical does onto the plant carrier and say oh that must be bad too . Lol

Look up the chemical composition of the volatile oils in chamomile and then yarrow... see they are practically identical and yet smell different

This reminds me of the which one is better argument, butter or margarine and it seems every so often it changes, lol. I think people should use what works best for them, I like Stevia the most for a sweeter but use/used glycerin, Splenda and sugar.

 

[Pounigirl]

People who know more about nutrition than me who I have talked to generally recommend something like a Mediterranean diet: whole grains, healthy fats (fish, nuts, olive oil), fruits, vegetables. Avoid refined sugar and flour.

Yeah that is what I pretty much *try* to do nowadays, just without the fish and animal products and yeah I still like my junk food white flour from time to time too (I'm eating some Trini Doubles right now! lol Don't judge me! hehe)

There are some claims - but I have not seen anything resembling a real study that the fiber in fruit buffers the way insulin responds to the fructose in fruit. So while you still get the insulin response it is not the same spike like drinking a glass of juice. My experience, as anecdotal as it is, is that I have never seen a diet ruined by eating too much fruit.

Ah that's interesting.

When I first went vegan I tried the high carb low fat frutiarian/starches thing. I was concerned at first because I had low blood sugar and the thought of eating fruit or starches for breakfast mortified me as I knew that if my sugar spiked and crashed that I would wind up seriously messed up, but I gave it a shot anyways (for science ) and although I did have crashes maybe the first 4-5 days to a week (I can't remember exactly anymore) it did even out after awhile and as long as I followed the diet strictly I was okay which really surprised me.

I think the initial crash that I experienced was due to going from eating a typical Caribbean/USA diet to literally HCLF Vegan overnight so there was that adjustment while the other stuff was still in my system I think. At least that is how it seems to me.

Then there was the day that I was weak and made some falafels and put them on a salad and a couple of hours later I ate like 6 tangerines. Holy crap did I mess myself up! I had one of the worst crashes I ever had in my life and I was sick for about 36 hours with migraines, shaking just really messed up. I really do think there is something with oil being in your system while having lots of fruit or starches where the body is able to tolerate them when there is no oil. Again this is only my own personal anecdotal experience, but it did seem to work while I was on it.

The problem I had with the HCLF Vegan diet for me personally was just that I had to eat SO MUCH food and eat all the time. Not only was that just too expensive for me to be able to maintain, the prep work in the kitchen was so time consuming and going out anywhere or doing anything where I was going to be out for hours and hours it was just too hard to plan for and bring enough food. It just took up too much time and space in my life.

I'm the kind of person that works a lot and is busy all the time and my stomach suddenly reminds me that yeah I haven't eaten since yesterday then I am totally content to just make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich or two and keep on truckin. IME you just can't do that and be HCLF vegan too. At least I had trouble finding a way.

Sometimes I am curious to try the more Starch Solution approach to it rather than the Fruitarian approach and see if it works better for me, but I haven't done it yet. I am still trying to find that balance between health, time, budget and lifestyle that works for me.

*Edit* Wow that really turned out to be a book! Sorry bout that. And @Zaphod that all wasn't directed at you personally so don't feel like you have to give any kind of reply to that rambling mess of a post. My reply to your comment was "Ah that's interesting" All that rambling rest was just the springboard that your comment made me think of.

Okay now back to the thread. Nothing to see here move along. hehe

 

[Zac Imiola (Herbalist)]

On the vegetable oil vs butter situation I think @Jerome is good to answer as he has extensive personal experience with fats .

 

[verticity]

When you lay down those percentages you have more than 20 percent content of the agave syrup undisclosed.. where as the others were 5 % and 0 %
This leaves open room for a lot of phytochemical's which as in most plant's contain balancing chemicals toward the "active ingrediant"

I find this interesting.
I also don't see any of those studies having to do with agave syrup. They're about fructose which then is projected onto agave because it's in there .
That's like expecting every caffiene substance to affect you the same because theirs caffeine which we do.. but is obviously misguided.
We get way to caught up on the chemical name and therefore overly project everything that the isolated chemical does onto the plant carrier and say oh that must be bad too . Lol

Look up the chemical composition of the volatile oils in chamomile and then yarrow... see they are practically identical and yet smell different

Agave nectar is a highly refined product that is mostly sugar, and most of the sugar is fructose, so it doesn't really seem that far out to suggest that findings about fructose would apply to it. The percent that is unaccounted for is mostly just water. There might be trace amounts of other nutrients (polysaccharides, fiber, amino acids, vitamins, minerals, etc.) remaining, but really nothing significant. This is a typical nutritional label:

http://sisanasweeteners.com/bulk-agave-products/natural-agave-nectar/

So, sure if you consumed the whole agave plant, or even the unrefined nectar, in which the polysaccharides are not broken down into simple sugars it might be pretty healthy, but the stuff you can buy is put through an industrial process similar to HFCS basically to maximize the sugar content.

(You can approximate how much of the fructose remains in the form of inulin--the polysaccharide considered by some to be the "good stuff" in agave nectar, but also the stuff that makes you gassy--by subtracting the grams of sugar from grams of total carbs, which in the above example amounts to about 10% of the total carbs..)

 

[kilakila]

As of just recently, I've been making coconut flour pancakes sweetened with coconut nectar. Coconut nectar is delicious with average GI of 35. And it doesn't taste of coconut, just nice and refreshingly sweet.

 

[Zac Imiola (Herbalist)]

I used that coconut stuff for my kava candies I made.
Also felt very clean in experience .

Inulin though is an amazing pre biotic . It's highest in dandelions, burdock and chicory root. It restores the gut flora by feeding the "good bacteria". Very helpful after using antibiotics.. or to use with probiotics. Since it's their food

 

[violet]

Inulin though is an amazing pre biotic . It's highest in dandelions, burdock and chicory root. It restores the gut flora by feeding the "good bacteria". Very helpful after using antibiotics.. or to use with probiotics. Since it's their food

Don't forget the delicious Jerusalem artichoke (sunchoke). It's right up there with chicory for inulin content (and it's my favorite tuber ).

 

[kilakila]

I used that coconut stuff for my kava candies I made.
Also felt very clean in experience .

Inulin though is an amazing pre biotic . It's highest in dandelions, burdock and chicory root. It restores the gut flora by feeding the "good bacteria". Very helpful after using antibiotics.. or to use with probiotics. Since it's their food

Since my holistic practitioner told me to stop any form of caffeine for 30 days (including tea, coffee and chocolate), I've been drinking either chicory or dandelion tea in the morning. I only drink one cup of coffee a day, so its not a big deal for me. First day of chicory and dandelion was - ugh! - but now I've grown used to it and actually like it. It will never be the same as coffee for taste, but its a passable warm drink and far far healthier1