The Kava-Sleep Conundrum

[El Guapo510]

Hello,

While great for anxiety, I've always personally struggled trying to sleep within hours of drinking Kava while for some it seems to be a blessing. Call me stubborn, but I refuse to chalk it up to body chemistry and give up so I am trying an analytical approach. The 4 most commonly used Kavas for myself I have looked up the chemotypes for below-

Kava Supreme-245613
KWK Borongoru-241356
KWK Vula Waka- 462351
KWK MeloMelo-421635

Knowing chemotypes of "2" and "5" are supposed to be most sedating, I've basically been aiming for that. One thing has stood out to me though- In those four kavas listed above, all have the "4" in either the first or second place of the chemotype. According to the following-http://www.kavalibrary.com/Chemotypes.html
#4 is Kavain which is known to produce more headier and euphoric effects. Therefore, I am starting to realize that perhaps its the Kavain that is maybe messing with dopamine too much and keeping me awake..

Tell me, am I on to something or not?? Thoughts?

Does anyone recommend a Kava low on Kavain?

 

[Edward]

Hello,

While great for anxiety, I've always personally struggled trying to sleep within hours of drinking Kava while for some it seems to be a blessing. Call me stubborn, but I refuse to chalk it up to body chemistry and give up so I am trying an analytical approach. The 4 most commonly used Kavas for myself I have looked up the chemotypes for below-

Kava Supreme-245613
KWK Borongoru-241356
KWK Vula Waka- 462351
KWK MeloMelo-421635

Knowing chemotypes of "2" and "5" are supposed to be most sedating, I've basically been aiming for that. One thing has stood out to me though- In those four kavas listed above, all have the "4" in either the first or second place of the chemotype. According to the following-http://www.kavalibrary.com/Chemotypes.html
#4 is Kavain which is known to produce more headier and euphoric effects. Therefore, I am starting to realize that perhaps its the Kavain that is maybe messing with dopamine too much and keeping me awake..

Tell me, am I on to something or not?? Thoughts?

Does anyone recommend a Kava low on Kavain?

Kavain is always in the first 3 I believe. I suppose it depends on the ratio of 2 and 5 to 4 but I find any heavy kava will help me to sleep. I don't think it's the kavain affecting it for you. I seem to remember it took me a while for that to happen though, maybe a few weeks of drinking heavy kavas before I really got it and then it became pretty reliable. Do you drink a lot of heady kavas often? If so maybe try drinking heavy kava only for a week and see if it builds up. Do you drink caffeine in the afternoon or take B vitamins or anything?

 

[El Guapo510]

Kavain is always in the first 3 I believe. I suppose it depends on the ratio of 2 and 5 to 4 but I find any heavy kava will help me to sleep. I don't think it's the kavain affecting it for you. I seem to remember it took me a while for that to happen though, maybe a few weeks of drinking heavy kavas before I really got it and then it became pretty reliable. Do you drink a lot of heady kavas often? If so maybe try drinking heavy kava only for a week and see if it builds up. Do you drink caffeine in the afternoon or take B vitamins or anything?

thanks for the reply! No I don’t drink heady kavas much I’ve been trying to stick with heavy or balanced. I haven’t given kava a real consistent go due to the fact it kind of causes sleep issues at the moment. How long did it take you drinking it daily to get to the reliability point? Do you drink it just before bed or space it?
I do drink some coffee in the morning but not heavy use and I do take b vitamins. If I drink alcohol it puts me out reliability but the sleep quality is poor, I’m hoping I can try to find the sweet spot with kava at some point.

 

[sɥɐʞɐs]

Sorry, it's mostly likely related, at least in part, to individual body chemistry and how you personally respond to certain kavalactones.
For me, every kava makes me tired and fall asleep quickly at the end of the night. The amount of sedation and the length to which it endures into the early hours of the morning is obviously different depending on which kind of kava I've had. But, no matter if I drink Mo'i or Kelai or Tongan vs. kava supreme, heavy waka, borogoru...falling asleep will come on rapidly when I decide to lay down.

On some occasions, a really strong batch or a sudden switch in cultivars will cause me to fall into an uncomfortable state of "half sleep" during the night, with several periods of wake ups and half-sleep and segments of intense REM (which probably lead to the awakenings. On these nights it's kind of like I'm heavily sedated and somewhat stimulated at the same time.

 

[Edward]

thanks for the reply! No I don’t drink heady kavas much I’ve been trying to stick with heavy or balanced. I haven’t given kava a real consistent go due to the fact it kind of causes sleep issues at the moment. How long did it take you drinking it daily to get to the reliability point? Do you drink it just before bed or space it?
I do drink some coffee in the morning but not heavy use and I do take b vitamins. If I drink alcohol it puts me out reliability but the sleep quality is poor, I’m hoping I can try to find the sweet spot with kava at some point.

When I started getting into it I was drinking kava every evening. I did go through a period of not sleeping well every night but most nights would be ok. What I found was that drinking early evening, say start at 5 or 6 pm, 7 at a push, and then going to be around 9, 10, 11, would be a lot better than drinking kava just before going to bed. I find these days if it's a strong heavy then I can sleep not long after but I still try and drink a few hours before bed. The other thing to mention is that if I have a break from kava and then go back to it, and also when I first started, I get very vivid dreams, mostly positive but sometimes quite uncomfortable. I'm guessing that's the kava working all the negativity out of my brain.

To begin with I was just drinking whatever kava without giving much thought to heady or heavy. When I got a good, heavy kava it took a week or so before I was noticing all of the heavy effects in the muscles and the sedation. After that it was pretty much reliable every time. I know what you mean with the alcohol, I can sleep a long time but still wake up tired, or at least not as refreshed as after a good kava sleep. When it hits you right you can sleep 8 or 9 hours in just a black sleep, no dreams or anything. The next thing you know it's morning and you feel great!

 

[El Guapo510]

Sorry, it's mostly likely related, at least in part, to individual body chemistry and how you personally respond to certain kavalactones.
For me, every kava makes me tired and fall asleep quickly at the end of the night. The amount of sedation and the length to which it endures into the early hours of the morning is obviously different depending on which kind of kava I've had. But, no matter if I drink Mo'i or Kelai or Tongan vs. kava supreme, heavy waka, borogoru...falling asleep will come on rapidly when I decide to lay down.

On some occasions, a really strong batch or a sudden switch in cultivars will cause me to fall into an uncomfortable state of "half sleep" during the night, with several periods of wake ups and half-sleep and segments of intense REM (which probably lead to the awakenings. On these nights it's kind of like I'm heavily sedated and somewhat stimulated at the same time.

Thanks, what you describe is somewhat similar to me and perhaps you are right in the end, it is just body chemistry. I do think I need to explore it more with other varieties and play around with the frequency and quantity of use before coming to a solid conclusion. When I first started drinking Kava, I was drinking those concentrates and they did not interfere with sleep but I enjoy the real powder much more so I don't want to go back now. Also, the kava candies seem to actually help but still, I'm trying to find my place with the fresh root.

 

[El Guapo510]

When I started getting into it I was drinking kava every evening. I did go through a period of not sleeping well every night but most nights would be ok. What I found was that drinking early evening, say start at 5 or 6 pm, 7 at a push, and then going to be around 9, 10, 11, would be a lot better than drinking kava just before going to bed. I find these days if it's a strong heavy then I can sleep not long after but I still try and drink a few hours before bed. The other thing to mention is that if I have a break from kava and then go back to it, and also when I first started, I get very vivid dreams, mostly positive but sometimes quite uncomfortable. I'm guessing that's the kava working all the negativity out of my brain.

To begin with I was just drinking whatever kava without giving much thought to heady or heavy. When I got a good, heavy kava it took a week or so before I was noticing all of the heavy effects in the muscles and the sedation. After that it was pretty much reliable every time. I know what you mean with the alcohol, I can sleep a long time but still wake up tired, or at least not as refreshed as after a good kava sleep. When it hits you right you can sleep 8 or 9 hours in just a black sleep, no dreams or anything. The next thing you know it's morning and you feel great!

See I think you gave it a more consistent run and allowed the kavactones to really build up in your system from what you describe. My usage is spotty and I'm probably not allowing it to reach its full potential- might be one factor.

 

[JohnMichael]

See I think you gave it a more consistent run and allowed the kavactones to really build up in your system from what you describe. My usage is spotty and I'm probably not allowing it to reach its full potential- might be one factor.

After an evening of a good cultivar, I leave one shell's worth of kava in the fridge as I head off to bed. If I feel wakeful at some point during the night, I drink that shell with a kava candy chaser...and it's back to sweet dreams.

 

[Edward]

After an evening of a good cultivar, I leave one shell's worth of kava in the fridge as I head off to bed. If I feel wakeful at some point during the night, I drink that shell with a kava candy chaser...and it's back to sweet dreams.

Actually kava candies are a little bit sedative themselves.

 

[Zaphod]

On some occasions, a really strong batch or a sudden switch in cultivars will cause me to fall into an uncomfortable state of "half sleep" during the night, with several periods of wake ups and half-sleep and segments of intense REM (which probably lead to the awakenings. On these nights it's kind of like I'm heavily sedated and somewhat stimulated at the same time.

Same here - I have found kavas that put me in this half awake half asleep state for hours. If they do I move them to my "daytime" only checklist. When I find a kava that reliably knocks me out I put it into the late evening list. Any new kava I try out many hours ahead of bedtime just to be sure.

 

[The Kap'n]

Same here - I have found kavas that put me in this half awake half asleep state for hours. If they do I move them to my "daytime" only checklist. When I find a kava that reliably knocks me out I put it into the late evening list. Any new kava I try out many hours ahead of bedtime just to be sure.

Nakamal At Home - Shaman Instant. Would do this every time. Extreme sedation with super stimulation. It's like you'd lay in bed all night just one second from opening your eyes and saying F*&! it and getting up. It's why I have a mostly full container of it still sitting next to my PC in the "Kava Relics" section. It's no longer available, but it would do exactly what you guys are talking about.

 

[El Guapo510]

Nakamal At Home - Shaman Instant. Would do this every time. Extreme sedation with super stimulation. It's like you'd lay in bed all night just one second from opening your eyes and saying F*&! it and getting up. It's why I have a mostly full container of it still sitting next to my PC in the "Kava Relics" section. It's no longer available, but it would do exactly what you guys are talking about.

Just curious which ones have you found to be your nighttime kavas?

 

[The Kap'n]

Just curious which ones have you found to be your nighttime kavas?

Kavas that aren't too stimulating. I find borongoru/boroguru/borugu a good sleep strain set. They generally run pretty sedative, but still have an enjoyable amount of kavain without being too uppity. Nene was actually really good at getting me to sleep without being pushy. Sometimes when you cross the line into a kava that's too strong you'll find sleep a bit harder to achieve than usual.

 

[El Guapo510]

Hmm had the same issue with borongoru but haven’t tried nene, maybe I’ll give that a shot. I can still enjoy it in the day time but really want to find something to have a t night that will at least be neutral when it comes to sleep.