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Toss N Wash

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kl.Dubkava

Kava Curious
After doing some reading up I have seen there are some studies out there that point to the alkaloid Flavokawain B. as a possible cause of potential liver damage caused by Kava use. The study points to alcohol extractions and how this alkaloid is extracted along with the kavalactones when alcohol is used. I wonder then if using kava via the toss n wash method is more hazardous to the liver as I assume all alkaloids are consumed when kava is ingested this way.
 
Ed!

Ed!

Kava Enthusiast
Good question. I was wondering that myself recently. Started toning down my toss-n-wash habits, because I was doing it a lot.
 
K

kl.gdm

Kava Curious
Found it much easier and efficient to either take dry or soak in a little warm water for a while, then down it follwed by water. I can get the same or better effect from using about half the amout than the traditional mixing/cheese cloth squeezing method.
It's much quicker and easier, plus you use much lesss which is a big cost savings.
Do wonder if there can be any harmful effects doing it this way.
 Comments anyone?
 
K

kl.Dubkava

Kava Curious
Yep. I have found myself using the t'n'w method more and more recently out of ease. The BKH grinds are so fine its easy to get down. And the effects do seem to be much more potent. But I'm starting to think 3000 years of straining by the indigenous people in the South Pacific could be a pretty big hint that toss n wash night not be the best idea.
 
The Kap'n

The Kap'n

The Groggy Kaptain (40g)
KavaForums Founder
Your skin will begin to feel the consequences. Dermapothy doesn't feel all that great. I learned that from drinking the powder straight up.
 
The Kap'n

The Kap'n

The Groggy Kaptain (40g)
KavaForums Founder
I'd say a month or so my skin started to scale and into the second month it started to bleed. I'm a slow learner. Keep in mind I was drinking tudei religiously. It was slightly less miserable when I switched to a lesser DHM/DHK type like Hiwa. Never truly got better until I started preparing traditionally.
 
Ed!

Ed!

Kava Enthusiast
My initial thinking with going toss-n-wash was that kneading a super fine grind just ends up filtering it all through the strainer if you work at it long enough anyway... so why not?
 
K

kl.new2kava

Kava Enthusiast
I think the mere fact that the South Pacific and Hawaiian cultures that have had kava as part of their culture for many centuries do not toss and wash speaks volumes. I think it safe to assume that they tried and decided it was more effective to make grog. I bet every now and then someone else would retry the idea and revert back to grog. I only used the method when I got fu'u and it was far too fine ground to strain with a muslin bag, it always worked well but bombed out my stomach.
 
Ed!

Ed!

Kava Enthusiast
It's effective, very effective. It just makes you want to toss your cookies drinking that grime.
Toss n wash n toss <--- probably the reason they don't do it.
 
K

kl.pep4848

Kava Curious
it's still not as bad as [email protected] tried a K@\kava cocktail last night and my eyes were watering as I had my session-it was incredibly tough to get down.

 At the end of it, I don't think it's worth it as i could feel the K@ more, and it kept me up all bloody night.
 
Buddhacide

Buddhacide

Kava Enthusiast
I do it all the time. Liver is fine, but I have recently developed some dermopathy on my hands and feet. I dont really get why straining is supposed to magically remove all the negative effects. Whether you strain it or not its the same substance. To me its waste not want not. I also like the effect better from toss and washing. Is it possible that they prepare it as they do in the south pacific simply because they use fresh root? Tradition notwithstanding there is not a lot of good science on why tossing and washing powdered root is harmful.
 
kavadude

kavadude

❦ॐ tanuki tamer
Buddhacide said:
I do it all the time. Liver is fine, but I have recently developed some dermopathy on my hands and feet. I dont really get why straining is supposed to magically remove all the negative effects. Whether you strain it or not its the same substance. To me its waste not want not. I also like the effect better from toss and washing. Is it possible that they prepare it as they do in the south pacific simply because they use fresh root? Tradition notwithstanding there is not a lot of good science on why tossing and washing powdered root is harmful.
Click to expand...
I don't really have any scientific evidence for or against toss and washing, but it certainly makes sense to me that there could be certain compounds that are ingested with toss and wash and not straining. I personally don't do it because it makes me feel really bad, but that could just be all the fiber and woody material.
 
kavadude

kavadude

❦ॐ tanuki tamer
Ah, heres what I was looking for, in an old post by Gray Owl:



Kava is a bit unusual in that it is an emulsion of something that is not soluble in water, but seems to emulsify more easily than lipids. ... An extraction with an alcohol is not an emulsion, in that case you are using a solvent to actually dissolve substances, and it is suspected that is where you get into trouble with solvent extractions from kava, substances like kawain may dissolve well in alcohols and ketones, but for some reason do not emulsify as well as the desirable kavalactones. 
---



I'd really like to see some more research in this area. Seems we have enough research to deem alcohol extractions and non-root parts of the plant to be bad, but nothing on the difference between straining and straight powdered root.
 
krunkedout

krunkedout

Kava Lover
My take on it is this: when you make kava the traditional way, the good stuff emulsifies into the water, while the bad stuff stays in the root. Yes, root particles do come through, but it is significantly less than when you se the toss and wash so there is much less for your liver to deal with. I would assume that when you ingest all of the root, you get the goodies and also the baddies. I'm not dissing the toss and wash method, that's just my take on it. Hell, I've even tossed and washed Fu'u and nambawan a few times. But honestly I can't handle the gag reflex that happens when I try to swallow a thick, kavalactone rich paste. Toss and wash does give stronger effects however. I would also assume the stronger effects come from flooding your body with more kavalactones so your liver isn't breaking it down as quickly, sort of like when you drink alcohol.
 
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