Vanuatu National Quality Standard for Kava Export

[sɥɐʞɐs]

Several technicalities are involved here, the first being that I didn't call 11 Year Waka "two day", I stated it was not noble under the criteria now officially specified by Vanuatu. The post you quote was also qualified by saying 11 Year is "noble by chemotype", which is not (nor has it ever been) an "approved" test for nobility. This is further elaborated (as mentioned in my footnote) in Post #27 of the same thread, where I compare other criteria and still give the recommendation to avoid it.

So yes, it was a very reluctant call. But now there is absolutely no need for such in-depth examination and discussion, we now have an authorized and validated method of determining nobility beyond question.

That reminds me, in your post #27 and your chart on Truekava.com, we see the K/DHM ratio for 11 yr waka listed as 2.33. I believe it's been said (possibly by you) that K/DHM is one of the best indicators...and 2.33 is among 'the best'. So, it has a great k/DHM ratio, it has a noble chemotype, it may have had low FK %(though I don't have the documentation) and it doesn't feel like tudei. Isn't that enough to say the mystery isn't solved and that it even has more evidence for its nobility than otherwise?

I'm aware that chemotype alone isn't a reliable indicator as well as perceived effects alone...but when seemingly everything but the color of the acetone test says noble, it leaves me with questions.

I'm saying this as an acetone test & noble kava advocate. In my opinion, the science isn't complete if we don't know what's going on with the 11yr issue.

I still hold the belief that an orange acetone result is enough to warrant extreme caution, if not complete dismissal of a kava, if you so desire.

Honest question, do we have any examples of tudei or tudei-adulterated kavas having K/DHM ratios around 2.33 ?

 

[FYS]

I did not read the entire report yet but there is a lot of stuff going on that should not be, thus the question, if they did this to some or most or all of there products. If they are dishonest in their business then it stand to reason that this dishonesty could have reached even to the kava they sell. Considering that they are a multi level marketing company and considering how much kava they sell, I think it is safe to say that they were getting kava from Vanuatu as well as Fiji, maybe even not Fiji at all, we just do not know yet, maybe even never.
I just mentioned this to show how this company my not be a good company to trust because of there actions.
On the other hand Dr. Lebot is a qualified scientist who we can trust, in fact he is most trusted by his peers.
I hope this answers your question, if not let me know and I will try to help. Aloha.

Chris

While I agree with what you said at that point, for me, it doesn't really matter if the kava is noble or not. It could be the cheapest, best, noble kava in the world and it wouldn't matter. With such a wide variety of good, honest vendors to choose from I refuse to give my money to any company which I feel engages in poor business practices and who I feel doesn't have good business ethics. Just engaging in these types of things, even if it doesn't extend throughout their entire business or they just ally themselves with companies with these types of practices, is enough to lose my business.

Fortunately, if someone doesn't like the way a certain vendor does things there are still plenty of other good vendors out there that they can turn to to fulfill their needs. The best way to solicit change is to vote with your wallet. If you want vendors to sell only noble kava then don't purchase from vendors who sell tudei, if you want vendors who publish COAs then only purchase from vendors who supply them. If you see a vendor that you are interested in who doesn't do something you think they should then take a few minutes and send them an email letting them know why you wont be purchasing from them. Some companies might ignore you or send you a mean spirited reply but those aren't the companies you want to support anyway. A good company will listen and take note of what the market wants and adapt its business to comply if a sufficient amount of people feel the same way.

At the end of the day these companies are in it to make money and if it takes making certain changes to keep people buying then they will either make the changes the customer base wants to see or they will fall by the wayside while the industry as a whole moves forward. In my opinion, continuing to support any vendor who you feel is detrimental to the industry, has questionable business practices or ethics, or conducts themselves in a way you feel is inappropriate simply because you like their product sends the wrong message. It lets them know that no matter what they do they will continue to sell their products and then there is no incentive for them to change.

Of course, everyone has to make their own decision when it comes to what they feel is and isn't appropriate for businesses to do or say and whether or not they still want to do business with a company that engages in these practices. For some people quality and price trump everything else but for others, like myself, the way a company, its owner(s), and its employees act, represent themselves and their company, run their business, treats their customers, their critics, and other vendors, etc is very important to me and plays a large role in whether or not I want to support them by purchasing their products.

 

[Zaphod]

Not to derail the current discussion but can anyone comment on why it specifically calls out cold water extraction? I have experimented with hot and cold water extraction - and I definitely get a stronger brew out of hot but tend to like the effects of cold better.

 

[sɥɐʞɐs]

K/DHM is a proposed criteria, in no way official. It correlates well with known nobles, and I am not aware of any two day with a K/DHM of 2.33. But given the fact that we are dealing with kava from a company that is now being sued for misrepresenting products, I hardly think this constitutes an "unsolved mystery", nor does it shed any doubt whatsoever on the Acetone test. Let's not forget the "Ginger 11 Year" or the "Splinters 11 Year" episodes, or the wide variation of strength in different "batches". It is conceivable that the coloration is not caused by two-day kava, but if that is the case I really don't care. The unknown adulterant could easily be much worse than two-day, so I still say don't drink it. As far as adverse effects are concerned, here's a partial list (in the smallest type I can use to save space):

...this 11yr seems stronger and dirtier than before. I'm not complaining. I love this kava. Just wondering if anyone else noticed a difference or is it just me? I had strong mix the last two nights and the effects are carrying over thru the entire next day. It didn't do that before. Noticed a lot more black specks and splinters floating around too.
http://www.kavaforums.com/forum/threads/11-year-micro-latest-batch-stronger.4527/
One tbsp knocked me out like I was drinking liquor. I felt drunk and went to sleep.
http://www.kavaforums.com/forum/thr...r-bula-kava-house-11-yr-waka.4931/#post-55430
You guys encounter any type of kava hangover with the 11yo micro waka? I tried some for the first time a couple of days ago and felt poorly for a couple of days afterwards.
http://www.kavaforums.com/forum/threads/new-11-year-waka-micronized.2971/page-7#post-44849
The next am was when I felt the hangover; work was a bummer...
http://www.kavaforums.com/forum/threads/new-11-year-waka-micronized.2971/page-8#post-45707
I haven't been able to finish mine for that exact reason. It's a shame given how expensive it is.
http://www.kavaforums.com/forum/threads/new-11-year-waka-micronized.2971/page-8#post-45445
Yeah, ever since my first "Ginger" batch I have felt like complete crap the next day and even into the third day. I have zero energy, pass out half way through the day.
http://www.kavaforums.com/forum/threads/hmmmm.4528/#post-50784
I can barely keep going or keep my eyes open on the next day. Lazy would be an understatement.
http://www.kavaforums.com/forum/threads/hmmmm.4528/#post-50836
Not for a few days but definitely the next day and morning (I wake up for work at 5am) I feel weird like hung over but not actually. Slightly dehydrated but mostly spacey and slow I guess.
http://www.kavaforums.com/forum/threads/new-11-year-waka-micronized.2971/page-7#post-45008
I'm about a week and a half into drinking 11 year kava daily.
- Got nausea only my first time because I drank too much. Rest was fine.
- Stoned feeling right off the bat, very potent. Very alcohol-like feeling.
- Not as comfortable feeling as other kavas.
- Next day calmness, lingering effects.
http://www.kavaforums.com/forum/threads/new-11-year-waka-micronized.2971/page-9#post-63139

As far as "the science isn't complete if we don't know what's going on with the 11yr issue", the opportunity was given and refused. As could be expected, Dr. Lebot was not interested in testing unknown ground kava powder. He was quite willing to test unground root and stump as long as proper morphology, cultivar, and location data were provided, but 11 Year's advocates were either unwilling or unable to comply.

Personally, my best guess is that 11 Year Waka was kava containing an unknown adulterant, quite possible Wichmanni. We'll never know, but thankfully there are many good noble cultivars available to us, so who cares? This horse is dead.

I wish you were as motivated and thorough about finding the cause of this anomalous result, as you are you about defending your position that willingly sweeps this glaring hole under the rug and considers the science complete.

I don't know how you can say "I hardly think this constitutes an "unsolved mystery", nor does it shed any doubt whatsoever on the Acetone test." It is an absolute, irrefutable fact that the mystery has not been solved and that it does cast some doubt on the Acetone test. It honestly makes me a bit uncomfortable that someone who has become trustworthy name in this aspect of kava science would hold this view.

Unfortunately, it seems the same could also be said for Dr. Lebot in this situation. You'd think the available Wakaya powders would have quickly become his most scrutinized and studied kava. It would be great if he could have had access to the fresh root, especially to test in comparison to the dry powder, but the fresh root alone is not the only important aspect in solving the issue we've seen. The public is consuming the packaged product, and that product needs to be tested until an answer to the anomaly is found. Until then, the Acetone test is not a definitively 100% accurate and complete piece empirical science.

As I've said many times, the Acetone test is extremely accurate, and for general purposes it has proven itself to be an excellent guide to determining noble/tudei. You, and anyone else, have every right to be suspicious of 11 yr waka because of it's coloration, despite the fact that other useful tests suggests that it's noble, I am suspicious as well. I would actually love for the 11 yr waka to be proven adulterated, so that the Acetone test could once again claim 100% accuracy. But as of now, it is slightly less than 100% and I don't think that's enough for science. Imagine how our electronics, GPS, aviation and aerospace industries would work, if the equations they were based on only worked most of the time but not all of the time.

I do remember the Ginger batches and the Splinter batches of a 11 yr...but if Ginger wasn't the cause of the coloration, then it's not very important in regards to the specific issue/solution. Wakaya also sold a ginger infused kava powder, so it seems pretty understandable. Similarly, people who order micro from verified noble vendors occasionally receive product that isn't micronized.

As for the cherry-picked quotes regarding certain user experiences with 11 yr., one could likely find more quotes that speak positively about it, if one were so inclined. Wouldn't you say a K/DHM ratio of 2.33 combined with a 'noble chemotype' is better evidence than a few subjective user reports ?
Beyond the 11 yr waka, if you wanted to scour reviews and conversations, you could absolutely find reports of verified noble kavas giving people the same reactions.

Even I can personally say, as a very experienced kava drinker; I have varying degrees of nausea almost every night, with noble kava. I have residual and sometimes extremely uncomfortable next day fog and lethargy, even after drinking 100% verified noble kavas -- especially when they're micronized.

As for the claim that 11 yr might contain an adulterant that "could easily be much worse than two-day" and "quite possible Wichmanni", I don't entirely disagree, since it could be anything. However, those are quite bold and alarming statements to make without any evidence to support the claim. It could be Wichmannii...it could be micronized AIDS...but with no data and no evidence it could be literally anything...good, benign or bad...

But this gets me back to the scientific data, this could be useful,

• Do we have any data on HPLC results of Wichmannii and Wichmanii-adulterated noble kava, at various levels of adulteration ?
• Did your 11 yr HPLC results show a dominant wavelength that clearly suggests the above.
• Did your 11 yr waka results show suspicious peaks in the spectrum that suggest any non-piper methysticum adulterant?
• What was the dominant wavelength of 11 yr waka ?
• Where did 11 yr's wavelength fall compared to your previous tudei & deliberately adulterated noble results ?

Please understand, I have no vested interest in either promoting nor admonishing Wakaya or any other vendor. I don't bring this up due to having any involvement in petty inter-vendor business squabbles. And I'm definitely not just trying to troll and undermine the Acetone test. I'm just here for the science, for the answers...and if anything, hopefully to strengthen the complete validity of the acetone test.

 

[Gourmet Hawaiian Kava]

@sɥɐʞɐs You said this--"I don't know how you can say "I hardly think this constitutes an "unsolved mystery", nor does it shed any doubt whatsoever on the Acetone test." It is an absolute, irrefutable fact that the mystery has not been solved and that it does cast some doubt on the Acetone test. It honestly makes me a bit uncomfortable that someone who has become trustworthy name in this aspect of kava science would hold this view.

Unfortunately, it seems the same could also be said for Dr. Lebot in this situation. You'd think the available Wakaya powders would have quickly become his most scrutinized and studied kava. It would be great if he could have had access to the fresh root, especially to test in comparison to the dry powder, but the fresh root alone is not the only important aspect in solving the issue we've seen. The public is consuming the packaged product, and that product needs to be tested until an answer to the anomaly is found. Until then, the Acetone test is not a definitively 100% accurate and complete piece empirical science."

I might be missing the point but it I know the reason that Dr. Lebot did not want to look into the 11 year old problem is because he would be getting a powder he knows nothing about, he does not know where it came from or what is in it and it is not his job to find out what is on a mysterious powder. If he has the whole root and some pictures of the plant it came from he might be able to check it out. You have to understand that it is a must for the scientist to see the kava plant and to make a positive identification as to the cultivar and then take that plant he saw and identified and then do some research on it. This is what he does, he does not take kava powders and try to figure out if it is kava or if it is not or if it has other things added to it.
An example would be where Dr Schmidt went to all the kava producing Islands in the Pacific, he took pictures, identified the kava cultivars adn then got samples of the root to be tested. There were strict protocol to be followed and he did this. He did all of this so that kava will be included in the codex and it is well on it's way and going along just fine.
Like I said Dr Lebot has no way of telling what is in that powder, this is why he said no, he needs to see the plant, identify it and then take samples. There might be a scientist out there in the world somewhere that might want to see what made that color from that batch of kava but he would have to do some intense testing, the thing that caused the coloration might not have even been kava, this is clear from the fact that Wakaya is not totally upfront with there products. This is not a job for Dr. Lebot, it is a job for the seller of the kava, if they wanted to go that far, Dr Lebot has no way of getting even close to a whole root sample of this product. I hope that I am explaining this okay.
Another point is that the acetone test is a standard now and since we do not have any idea if the coloration was caused by something other than kava you can not say that this test is not a viable test. It is and it is a standard. If Dr Lebot had the whole root, fresh or dried then he might be able to do some work on it but he can never get that so again the problem is with the seller (not BKH) but Wakaya. Only wakaya knows what is in there kava, BKH does not, they did not see the plants harvested not did they identify it or process it so only Wakaya knows.
I hope this helps you to understand why Gary or Dr. Lebot does not want to find out why this coloration happened, there is no reliable way to find out other than doing studies on anything that could cause it until they find it, that is dealing with things that are not kava and these guys are into kava and do not want to go into other things.
Here are a few pictures of when Dr. Schmidt came to Hawaii to document the Hawaiian 'Awa plants---


Remember they need to follow this protocol so that they meet the requirements of the codex.
Aloha.

Chris

 

[Deleted User01]

To me it's a waste of time to talk about a Kava whose test results change from 1 year to the next. A mysterious kava whose origin is known but unknown. Maybe it came from the Island of Dr. Moreau and maybe it didn't. And maybe the first sample that tested orange had "stuff" in it, and maybe it didn't. Add into the mix that it comes from a company accused of deceptive practices and you can see that it is a losing proposition trying to hold this kava up to any known standard. Oh, and add on the skepticism as to it's real age. Naw, I'm out. No way to prove anything one way or another. I'm sure Lebot would also say, "Not me".

 

[sɥɐʞɐs]

A single retail product that fails a now-established test is hardly an earthshaking event that merits the immediate attention of the scientific community, nor does it call into question the trustworthiness of that community. The burden of proof is on the manufacturer, who was totally silent on the topic and failed to respond to requests for more information.

Here's something else you may find interesting: At least three other vendors were offered the same product by the same manufacturer. I personally tested the samples provided, and they were identical in composition and test results to this supposedly unique kava. No claim was made by the manufacturer of any special age or source of this kava.

There are at this point two validated tests for noble kava: the Acetonic Test, and positive identification of cultivar. 11 Year Waka fails the Acetonic test, and all requests for positive identification of cultivar have been ignored. I'd call that "case closed".

Bottom line: Since you feel an injustice has been done, and that it would greatly benefit the kava community to have this "mystery" solved, I suggest you send a sample to a lab and pay for GC/MS analysis. Please share your results.

Yes, the burden of proof should be on the manufacturer. I wish so badly that they would clear this all up, as they rightly should. Perhaps we can file another suit against them.

As for the suggestion that I should pay for getting more tests done, I wish I could afford it. But the onus shouldn't be on me anyway, my stance is the logical and rational one, and I'm offering up evidence to back it up: 1)apparently noble chemotype, 2)apparently noble 2.33 K/DHM ratio and 3)apparently noble FkB results.
Whoever claims they are certain 11 year waka is tudei or adulterated and that the Acetone test is currently proven 100% accurate, despite those very important pieces of evidence I listed, and without offering up any definitive evidence to negate or surmount those, surely must be more responsible than I am to prove their view.

The Acetone test itself can't be used as 100% evidence in this discussion, because it's possible fallibility is exactly at the heart of the issue. But even if you use 11 yrs failing of the acetone test as evidence, it's still just 1 negative against 3 positives.

I wonder this, if you tested a kava and it returned a tudei chemotype, a tudei .082 K/DHM ratio & tudei FkB%...but for some reason it tested perfectly golden on the acetone test. Would declare with such certainty that it's noble, based on the acetone result, and despite the mountain of tudei results behind it ?

I wish I could be shown the necessary evidence to put this to bed, or in the absence of that, at least the acknowledgement that there is strangely more evidence pointing to this kavas nobility than there is to it's adulteration. But rather I see dismissive, arrogant and condescending statements that do nothing to actually prove the specific view point in question...or even at least help brainstorm ideas that could possibly help solve the problem.

Also, I'll reiterate one more time, that I personally believe the 11 yr/wakaya kava could be adulterated.
I've also always held the same stance, that there are so many noble kavas out there that aren't suspicious, you don't ever really need to bother with one that is. But that view doesn't end the core issue. 11 yr still gives a bad acetone result while simultaneously providing several other paradoxically positive noble results, with no answers as to why and no acknowledgment of the fact that it still needs to be solved before you can make any definitive claims of it's noble-status and/or the 100% effectiveness of the acetone test.

That's not a 'case closed' situation, perhaps something more akin to a cold-case or a hung jury.

*** Here's BKH's CoA, if you wanna double check that I didn't read the FkB results wrong:

 

[Gourmet Hawaiian Kava]

Just to clarify.. @Deleted User did you do a full analysis of the sample that failed the acetone test? Did it indeed have a 436xxx chemotype? Obviously the chemotype alone is not an indication of nobility (I've just seen a pure two-day, palisi sample with a 234xxx chemotype and I am sure that mixing it with noble would produce something like 243, 432 or even 463/643 if it was mixed with an M-rich Fijian), but the fk levels are quite interesting. At the same time, I am not sure how to verify if it was exactly the same batch that failed the acetone test and to what extent the COA is actually accurate..

I am not sure what we have been dealing with. The very same sample (physically examined by the same person) that had both low fk/noble chemo AND failed the test or two independent test results (one by Garry, one by AKA) of two samples that were allegedly from the same batch?

It is my understanding that there were so many different batches of this kava from Wakaya that some have failed the acetone test and some have passed. Maybe the test that BKH has was done on a different sample, one that passed the acetone test. I bought 50 kilos of this kava when Wakaya offered it to me just after BKH started offering it. I had it tested and I also tried it, there was a difference in the bags at the top of my order vs the bags on the bottom of my order. The sample that caused the orange color is long gone and it may or may not be back, it all depends on Wakaya. With so many different batches of this kava I would bet there would be a difference in all testing methods. that is what you get when you blend kava, different chemotype, different results with HPLC FK and acetone. I remember I took Mahakea stump and lateral roots, I had them each tested and then I used varying amounts of each stump and lateral roots and I was able to get over 12 different chemotypes. It is really hard to get consistent blended kava, this may be where the problem is.
Aloha.

Chris

 

[sɥɐʞɐs]

@sɥɐʞɐs : Seriously, are you even reading my posts? Both Wakaya and BKH were asked to submit this kava along with the necessary documentation to Dr. Lebot for testing. He agreed to test, they failed to respond, case closed. What more do you want?

Reading this post makes me wonder if you even read mine. I responded directly to many things from your previous post and I've made it very clear what I want/what's needed...at length, more than once.

Regarding Lebot never getting access to the 11 yr waka. That's a bummer, but that doesn't make the issue resolved. It doesn't make the anomalous result non-existent, it's only a testament to it's incompleteness.

If an employer wanted to find out if an employee has drugs in their system, and the employee refused to give a sample for testing. That does not equal a case-closed answer to the question. It means the employee either does or doesn't, and we can't say with 100% certainty which one it is.

 

[sɥɐʞɐs]

No one has claimed the acetone test as 100% accurate.

That's great to hear, so then, would you agree with this statement:

The acetone test might not be 100% accurate AND as such may rarely produce an inaccurate result, one of which might be 11 yr. waka.​

 

[Groggy]

Threads like these make me think of this...
http://www.iamalwaysright.com

 

[Groggy]

I can only agree with the first part: "The acetone test might not be 100% accurate".

Great initial post, thank you for the valuable information, this thread went off topic and off course 2 pages ago, please feel free to discuss the original point and in case you forgot, here are the Updated forum rules.

http://kavaforums.com/forum/KFGuidelines.pdf
@Gourmet Hawaiian Kava you may want to read it again as well.

 

[Gourmet Hawaiian Kava]

Great initial post, thank you for the valuable information, this thread went off topic and off course 2 pages ago, please feel free to discuss the original point and in case you forgot, here are the Updated forum rules.

http://kavaforums.com/forum/KFGuidelines.pdf
@Gourmet Hawaiian Kava you may want to read it again as well.

@Deleted User I guess I did go a bit off the original topic, I am sorry for that, maybe you can make a new post with your original content and leave this post for what it is.
Aloha.

Chris

 

[Groggy]

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[The Kap'n]

Moderator actions: Cleaning up thread. Removed off topic posts at thread's end. Keeping krunky's quote of the guidelines.

Edit: Also removed posts containing conjecture and speculation regarding Wakaya.