Prices going up again

[SelfBiasResistor]

We may just have to accept the fact that going forward kava will only be a luxury drink for occasional recreational use or used medicinally for those with the deepest of pockets. Even then, the quality needs to be brought up a good bit. One of the best experiences I've had in the last year was a really old bag of BKH Borogu that I paid $31.50/1.1 lbs at the time.

It's a prescription med here.

Further proof our FDA/DEA is either incompetent or agenda driven (possibly both?). They claim the plant has no potential for medicinal value. Just like cannabis that is currently prescribed by doctors in many states to treat medical issues...

 

[sɥɐʞɐs]

You assume too many things here, particularly the "disappearance" of my Christian beliefs. Note that my statement DOES include my music business, and I stand by that statement completely. I do not and have never made a nickel from the kava business, in fact my involvement has involved considerable expense. In the music business my prices are average to below market. My advantage is service, which I provide to a greater degree than my competitors. Further, let's place my quote in context: The subject of that post was accusations that I was making tons of money in the kava business and thus motivated to endorse certain vendors, a total falsehood.

No, you are now assuming that I implied that the entirety of your Christian beliefs have disappeared, when I merely pointed out that one belief you previously stated, seems to stand at odds with your current support for price gougers over consumers. And yes, saying 'price gouging' is probably still an exaggeration at this point. But I think the point is clear, you are stating both that you are on a divine kava mission, that people who cry "profit" are showing their true heart and that you are not motivated by profit on this noble kava mission...on the other hand you are simultaneously in defense of those who jack up the prices of kava at the detriment of the people who need it. So yes, YOU, are not personally profiting from kava, nor did I accuse you of such in this thread, or the quoted thread. But you are clearly stating your support for those who stand to profit from kava to profit as much as possible and keep pushing, no matter how unreasonable, which is a view that counterintuitively works against your divine mission from God and contradicts your claimed view of profiting when it comes to you and kava personally.

No single merchant can increase prices drastically and expect to still make sales, and there is no wholesale collusion to fix prices in the kava industry. If you disagree, please provide evidence or at least a plausible theory.
Lacking any evidence of "price fixing", it is clear that kava is becoming more popular, supplies are short, and prices are increasing accordingly. When that happens with any goods, there can be individuals that are "priced out of the market", and that seems to be what is happening here.

More stuff I didn't say. I haven't claimed price fixing, Judd mentioned it, but I believe it could play a role, just as I agree popularity plays a role in current prices. I wouldn't mind looking for evidence of price fixing though, let me hop on a plane real quick and go tour the pacific island kava farms. I'll get back to ya.

I propose that you are somewhat bitter over rising costs of a commodity that you consider necessary to your well-being, and I totally understand that. But your insistence that you are paying "

more than enough " shows you feel a right to dictate prices, or at least appeal to seller's "morality" based on your judgement of same, and I don't see this as fruitful.

That's quite a proposal, it's almost as if you've read exactly what I type openly and publicly here on the Kava Forums. The "more than enough" statement comes from statistical data, we can see what the prices were before, during and after the original kava boom...now we're in another kava boom. The prices per Kg during the peak in the late '90s were already much more money than any farmer or middleman ever thought possible from kava, it was a green gold rush, they couldn't believe it. If the peak export price during a boom in the past was roughly $25 FJD per Kg, does it sound reasonable then, that when a boom comes back around it should now be $120 FJD per Kg and climbing? Or does that kind of give the impression that it might be 'more than enough', the job hasn't changed, but the price has changed dramatically. Again, it makes complete sense that people want to make as much money as possible when they see the opportunity, I'd want to do the same thing up to a point, but honestly, there's a price that's completely fair to the farmer and consumer alike and this doesn't seem to be it, the way we've been going. In this thread alone, I've already seen several people say they've either had to stop buying kava, or are currently at their breaking point and a couple cracks about having to retreat back to alcohol or K@. I'm not anti-capitalistic, but I do legitimately care about people being able to afford their medicine, not just for me, for everyone. I guess this snarky atheist cares more about people than profits...and I'm not saying there should be no profits, just that we're beyond the happy medium.

What are you actually saying to kava vendors? Are you saying "stop colluding to raise prices", or perhaps "please lower your profit margins because I really need this stuff"? I propose that "profit" is in fact your motivation, and you think vendors are getting too much of it.

Please clarify.

Well I made a statement about vendors a few posts ago, I said this: "there are costs involved for vendors that are out of their control and they must adjust accordingly for it to be lucrative enough to continue on, especially for those (vendors) who rely on acquiring kava from external sources."
Does that read like "stop colluding to raise prices" and "please lower your profit margins"? I don't see it, but maybe you're sensing some unconscious intent behind my words. I will say this, someone is profiting greatly somewhere along the kava food chain, to the point where they they might be shooting themselves in the foot, because it's starting to drive away consumers and is probably greatly reducing prospective consumers. Now, it's unlikely an average vendor who has to buy kava at wholesale price is doing any major unnecessary price bumps, though I think vendors can slowly tit for tat their prices up between each other, over time. It seems at this point, the 'profit' causing the current issue, must be early in the kava chain, like farmers/wholesalers just seeing how high of a price whitey is willing to pay...they throw out a number, we bite, word spreads to other farmers and we go on from there. I can promise you this, even if I was a millionaire and the price didn't affect me personally, as it does now, I would still have the same opinion about all this. In fact, if I were a millionaire, I'd prove 1st hand how cheap kava can be.

Now you or anyone can respond to this post and nitpick, misconstrue or take umbrage with anything that I've said, but I likely won't be responding any further. It's too aggravating and time consuming...I can't even understand why anyone would waste their time posting to defend the right for people to perpetually raise the cost of kava to the point were the person can't buy/benefit from it.

@Henry I read your post, but also won't be responding. It would be much easier and probably more helpful to have these conversations in person. Maybe someday...

 

[SelfBiasResistor]

Kalm with Kava hasn't joined this conversation, but you might note that they have one of the lowest prices out there, $42lb for Borogu.

That's great for people that can get what they need from the economy priced kava. For people like myself, those products really aren't a value because of the massive amounts needed to achieve lackluster results. Last year, Supreme was by far the best potency/price but even it's at about $58/lbs now.. even more without paying for free Amazon Prime shipping.

I know that some vendors are saying they will lower prices when they can but even they are dependent on the farmers/middlemen. If good kava sells at $80+/lbs retail price, they won't have much incentive to sell it for less. Also, if the kava bars really start taking off, it's going to get much worse. Apparently in this early state, they are willing to buy large amounts at a cost that's beginning to get out of many long time consumers acceptable range.

 

[Pauluk]

Having seen Europe fall in love with kava then get it banned. Looking at America now i would be get good money its going to get banned there too. Or at the very least strictly controlled. We never even had the kava bars here. They are an accident waiting to happen.

Maybe the suppliers are making what they can before the next bust.

 

[Groggy]

At the same time, I also think that the prices are unlikely to go back to the levels seen 5-10 years ago because those prices would not sustain any of the higher cost suppliers that are necessary to satisfy the current and future demand.

As one vendor put it to me, a 20% decline in prices (either nominal or in real terms over time) would be a win-win situation for all and a good step towards the industry's sustainable future.

I agree, the notion that prices may drop significantly are not very likely. It would be nice to see them hold in the very least at the current prices.

 

[recentreturn]

Having seen Europe fall in love with kava then get it banned. Looking at America now i would be get good money its going to get banned there too. Or at the very least strictly controlled. We never even had the kava bars here. They are an accident waiting to happen.

Maybe the suppliers are making what they can before the next bust.

Yeah; I can't help but feel weird about kava bars. Their existence just seems to put kava in the spotlight as a recreational beverage so directly that it seems like its just asking for non-kava-drinking gov't figures to start overthinking the herb and making ignorant policy. Its one thing for it to be a nutritional supplement on the shelf next to ginseng, valerian, chamomile, and mulling spices. Its another for it to be a "new craze" spreading across the nation (of course it'll never be that much of a craze...).
Its bizarre that the United States seems to be a hub of non-Pacific kava use, with people from Europe looking to the US; for a product produced REALLY far away from the US!

 

[Zaphod]

They call that a loyalty scheme here.

You can call it what you like. Since I have bought kava from BKH, GHK, Squanch, KWK, and Kavafied I not sure you could call me "loyal" to anything but good kava. I certainly have my favorites, but trying new kavas is part of the fun and adventure. What it did do is save me a decent amount of $ which is what this thread is about.

 

[Bula Kava House]

I should clarify my statement about price fixing. It's not like the growers and processors meet at a table and decide the price of kava. What happens is a grower or group of growers will sell to an exporter at the highest price possible, and shortly thereafter word gets around that that's the new price that's being paid, and growers should not sell for less. Over time that price goes up.

On another point, shakas mentioned that someone is greatly profiting somewhere along the line. Margins for retail vendors have decreased, but I can tell you that there are a whole lot of new Land Rovers driving around Vila and Santo. The drastic price increases have definitely been good for farmers. Of course, you can't really get mad at people whos families have had very little in the way of material possessions for generations.

 

[kastom_lif]

How does a Land Rover in Vila help the farmers on outer islands? Admittedly, there is a good bit of kava grown on Santo. But on Efate? Not really. People in town are middlemen or running urban nakamals. Efate is a net consumer of kava, not a producer.

I should clarify my statement about price fixing. It's not like the growers and processors meet at a table and decide the price of kava. What happens is a grower or group of growers will sell to an exporter at the highest price possible, and shortly thereafter word gets around that that's the new price that's being paid, and growers should not sell for less. Over time that price goes up.

On another point, shakas mentioned that someone is greatly profiting somewhere along the line. Margins for retail vendors have decreased, but I can tell you that there are a whole lot of new Land Rovers driving around Vila and Santo. The drastic price increases have definitely been good for farmers. Of course, you can't really get mad at people whos families have had very little in the way of material possessions for generations.

 

[Bula Kava House]

How does a Land Rover in Vila help the farmers on outer islands? Admittedly, there is a good bit of kava grown on Santo. But on Efate? Not really. People in town are middlemen or running urban nakamals. Efate is a net consumer of kava, not a producer.

Likely exporters and family members of growers from other islands on Efate. Growers in Santo. And I didn't say Land Rovers somehow help people on outer Islands. I'm just saying the sudden price surge has created a lot of new money in the islands.

 

[Bula Kava House]

This article talks of a 10 fold increase in kava price as a good thing for Vanuatu. Like it or not, maximizing profit for growers and exporters is a primary goal. This is a Codex related issue.
http://dailypost.vu/news/kava-green...cle_ad5c9df5-44ee-5d9e-b763-72a234b08394.html

 

[gork]

This is insane. It hasn't even been a couple of months since the last price hike and now I see prices going up again. I think I have to draw the line and leave my favorite vendor in favor of more reasonable pricing. I just can't believe how bad this is getting.

IMO it might be worth asking yourself if it's even worth while with costs going up and fankly such hit and miss quality.

 

[Bula Kava House]

A 10 fold increase is a bit optimistic. $50-$60lb seems to be taking kava out of the reach of many users, $500-$600lb would eliminate traditional use completely.

I too think 10 fold is probably unlikely, but even double today's prices and kava would rarely be used as a traditional beverage outside of the islands.

 

[gork]

A 10 fold increase is a bit optimistic. $50-$60lb seems to be taking kava out of the reach of many users, $500-$600lb would eliminate traditional use completely.

^ it's nort worth it IMO.

 

[kastom_lif]

Likely exporters and family members of growers from other islands on Efate. Growers in Santo. And I didn't say Land Rovers somehow help people on outer Islands. I'm just saying the sudden price surge has created a lot of new money in the islands.

That's true. Most families have people in town and people aot long aelan. The money and cargo flow freely to where it's needed. Plus Land Rovers are safer than Hyundai buses.

 

[___]

so I got my kavafied supreme from amazon- dang it's pretty good. I'm not a fan of the amazon business model, but if you have access to prime it's a pretty good deal to the extent I don't expect the current prices to last and that's before you factor in prime shipping. it has a little more body effects than I prefer but it's a good 'bedtime kava' with some bonus headiness settling in a while after I drank it. I think I could drink it during the day without issue, but then I've never had a kava I couldn't drink during the day in medium amounts. I'm tempted to do go have another couple tablespoons but I already had 9 so I probably shouldn't.

I did the triple wash thing too, I'm still not convinced it's better than spending extra time preparing it but it doesn't hurt either and I was still clearly getting something out of it.

I remainl rather undecided if it's worth the current prices to me. Probably if I had more stuff going on in my life- I'm living a pretty calm life atm though I don't plan to forever- but there's always an opportunity cost (like how I'm possibly wanting to get some kind of moped or 2 wheel vehicle to have a primary transportation) and the last 2.5 months have shown me that I now can go without kava if I have to. If it got more expensive it would be hard to even theoretically justify it when I've made great strides in being calmer and more open without it.

also I've decided everyone here is great people

 

[Krunkie McKrunkface]

so I got my kavafied supreme from amazon- dang it's pretty good. I'm not a fan of the amazon business model, but if you have access to prime it's a pretty good deal to the extent I don't expect the current prices to last and that's before you factor in prime shipping. it has a little more body effects than I prefer but it's a good 'bedtime kava' with some bonus headiness settling in a while after I drank it. I think I could drink it during the day without issue, but then I've never had a kava I couldn't drink during the day in medium amounts. I'm tempted to do go have another couple tablespoons but I already had 9 so I probably shouldn't.

I did the triple wash thing too, I'm still not convinced it's better than spending extra time preparing it but it doesn't hurt either and I was still clearly getting something out of it.

I remainl rather undecided if it's worth the current prices to me. Probably if I had more stuff going on in my life- I'm living a pretty calm life atm though I don't plan to forever- but there's always an opportunity cost (like how I'm possibly wanting to get some kind of moped or 2 wheel vehicle to have a primary transportation) and the last 2.5 months have shown me that I now can go without kava if I have to. If it got more expensive it would be hard to even theoretically justify it when I've made great strides in being calmer and more open without it.

also I've decided everyone here is great people

Supreme is very good at doing certain things, including pain relief. I save it for when I really really need it. Then I am really glad of it. It also tastes pretty good, ESP the most recent batch, and because of the grind, it makes awesome kava flakes. We make enough flakes around here that actually has become a consideration. So yeah, last time I bought Supreme is was $17 for a 4 oz package. Normally I wouldn't do that unless I needed to.