2nd time drinking...underwhelming results

[Rusty Shackleford]

The first time I drank kava was a few years ago. It was from a company called Starwest Botanicals if memory serves. I pulsed it in the blender to get the froth, then dunked it and kneaded it in water. The effects were intense, but intensely negative. I felt dizzy, nauseous, and had quite a bit of dysphoria. I wound up sleeping for an ungodly length of time...something like 16 hours if I recall. I may have drank too much too quickly.

This time I got some Buroguru from BKH. So I decided to be more cautious. Not having a blender anymore, I simply used the dunk and knead method in room temperature water. It was warm to start but cool by the time I was done.

I used 5 tablespoons in the first "ball" and kneaded and dunked that for at least 45 minutes. I used a cotton t-shirt as I don't have a proper strainer. I was disappointed that I didn't really see any oils or anything in the liquid. Since I used a good 40 oz of water, I decided to make it stronger with another 5 tablespoons. I repeated the same process for another 30 minutes.

If I looked very closely, I thought I saw some very small oily spots. But it was negligible. Over the next hour, I chugged the contents of the pot. This may seem reckless after my first experience, but I was drinking half a glass at a time and feeling slight effects by the time I was on the next glass. I hadn't eaten in a good 7 hours, so onset was fast.

I felt definite effects, but considering I consumed 10 tablespoons I was definitely underwhelmed. I felt a slight relaxation and that's about it. Not really any euphoria, coordination problems, drunk feeling, muscle relaxtion, etc. Don't get me wrong...it was a nice feeling. If this is all there is to kava then I will continue to consume it for the mild relaxation.

But reading other people's posts, it seems like there's more to kava. I suspect my preparation method is to blame. If it was reverse tolerance, how could I have achieved such overwhelming results on my first try a few years ago? I'm also skeptical of the whole "reverse tolerance" idea. It doesn't make sense to me on a chemical level. I'm more inclined to believe it has to do with people perfecting their prep over time.

I just took two tablespoons via the toss and wash method, to compare the efficacy. As I'm typing this, I feel a bit of stimulation...yet relaxed at the same time. My jaw is clenching and grinding a bit, and my eyes feel like they want to flutter...almost like they did on MDMA when I used to use drugs. But there hasn't been any boost to the mental effects from the 2 additional tablespoons.

So any tips on preparation would be appreciated. Does a blender make that much of a difference? Is a t-shirt insufficient? Is fat really needed? I've scoured the internet for prep methods, so I think I understand the basics. I'm interested in more specific tips...not just "knead and dunk the kava" but exactly how you knead and dunk the kava when you prepare it.

Perhaps my expectations of kava were too high, but the lack of visible oils tells me that my prep was less than perfect.

I'm also curious what you guys consider the onset and duration to be? How long does it take to fully kick in? I've heard different things.

 

[kavadude]

Well, I use about 1/2 cup of anything at a time and I've got reverse tolerance and prep all worked out. Some people are just hardheads.

I'm not sold on the reverse tolerance entirely either but there are some ways it could potentially work -- upregulation of GABA receptors has been suggested. And it does seem to be a common experience.

As far as prep, what you did sounds pretty solid. Actually, an hour and a half of prep is quite a lot, I spend more like 15-20 minutes each night. Fat is not necessary, some people find it helps, I use nothing but water every time. I just put it in the strainer bag, tamp it down with my fist and then squeeze it out. Sometimes I shift it around a bit too. I'd advise you keep drinking, maybe look into a fijian strainer or something a little more coarse than a t shirt (nylon stockings, paint or jelly strainer maybe).

Onset and duration. I'd say about 30 minutes to feel the full effects and about an hour and a half to two hours total, on an empty stomach. With a full stomach it can be quite a bit longer but of course dulls the potency. And it is a rather complex experience -- the muscle relaxation in my experience can last for hours and often until I fall asleep

 

[HeadHodge]

So any tips on preparation would be appreciated. Does a blender make that much of a difference? Is a t-shirt insufficient? Is fat really needed? I've scoured the internet for prep methods, so I think I understand the basics. I'm interested in more specific tips...not just "knead and dunk the kava" but exactly how you knead and dunk the kava when you prepare it.

Some people use a nylon stocking for straining. If you don't have one, maybe run down to the closest store and get a pair. You don't need a blender to agitate the Kava, you could instead put it into a jar with water and shake it vigorously multiple times over a period of time. Then pour the whole contents into the stocking and knead and squeeze until all the liquid is extracted from the stocking. Drink the liquid and throw away the solids left in the stocking. That's a very basic way and there are many variations to that method. Warm or hot water is better than cold water to help extract the oils. Personally I boil my water before adding the Kava to it.

Besides the oils floating on the water, my personal strength test is what it does to my lips and tongue when I take a sip of the liquid. If it's good, they both become almost instantly numb.

I've used Borguru with pretty good results, so I wouldn't give up on it. You're using way more Kava root than I do. I use 4 tablespoons per 2-3 cups of water.

 

[Rusty Shackleford]

Thanks for the reply. How would you compare the efficacy of the toss and wash method? A lot of people seem to say it's stronger, but can also cause more negative effects. I'm willing to take the risk if it's much more effective.

 

[kavadude]

It's extremely efficient, you are getting 100% of the kavalactones as opposed to water extractions which actually pull a fairly small percentage of the kavalactones. The main concern is side effects and consuming a lot of hepatotoxic flavokawain B (though the jury is still out on whether this alone can cause liver damage). One other thing you might want to try is using hot to boiling water.

 

[HeadHodge]

Thanks for the reply. How would you compare the efficacy of the toss and wash method? A lot of people seem to say it's stronger, but can also cause more negative effects. I'm willing to take the risk if it's much more effective.

Sorry no personal experience with that except for instants. From what I've read is that if you go that route, get a really fine micronized grade Kava. Look at Gourmet Kava's web site, they have some micronized Tonga for sale. And Chris is very knowledgeable on the subject.

 

[Rusty Shackleford]

I'll probably try hot water next time. I think I must have been doing something wrong since I didn't see the oils in my liquid. I've seen some pictures from other people's preps and the oils are obvious. And I know BKH Boroguru is supposed to be excellent, so I think the problem is on my end.

 

[HeadHodge]

It's extremely efficient, you are getting 100% of the kavalactones as opposed to water extractions which actually pull a fairly small percentage of the kavalactones.

Just curious @kavadude...... It's true that you are consuming 100% of the kavalactones but are you absorbing them or crapping them? (sorry couldn't think of a more diplomatic name for poop)

 

[Rusty Shackleford]

Just curious @kavadude...... It's true that you are consuming 100% of the kavalactones but are you absorbing them or crapping them? (sorry couldn't think of a more diplomatic name for poop)

That was my thought as well. It's conceivable that without agitating the kava, you're passing a lot of the kavalactones. That would explain why capsules never worked for me, even when the capsules consisted of fresh freeze dried kava.

Quick update: I've now consumed 5 tablespoons via the toss and wash method and still only slight relaxation. I'd estimate I've consumed almost half of my 250 gram bag now (in one night), which is frustrating because I could have stopped after the first 20-30 grams and had the same effects.

 

[sɥɐʞɐs]

the eye wiggle jaw clench that's a bit similar to rolling, is usually upper-level kava buzz for me...i don't even attain it every time. and pushing beyond often leads to bad nausea. i don't think you're going to be able to make tonights trial any better without getting sick. you definitely need do it again for a couple days... high expectations can definitely decrease the ability to feel the full effects, especially the peaceful happy contentment. empty stomach is always important.....and sometimes you just have to find a strain that works better with you.

 

[HeadHodge]

Quick update: I've now consumed 5 tablespoons via the toss and wash method and still only slight relaxation. .

Have you by any chance checked yourself for a pulse (I've read somewhere that Zombies are immune to Kava)?

 

[Deactivated Account]

the eye wiggle jaw clench that's a bit similar to rolling, is usually upper-level kava buzz for me...i don't even attain it every time. and pushing beyond often leads to bad nausea. i don't think you're going to be able to make tonights trial any better without getting sick. you definitely need do it again for a couple days... high expectations can definitely decrease the ability to feel the full effects, especially the peaceful happy contentment. empty stomach is always important.....and sometimes you just have to find a strain that works better with you.

Totally agree. Particularly the empty stomach bit. Even with the fresh root here it can totally mess up a kava dring time.

 

[Rusty Shackleford]

the eye wiggle jaw clench that's a bit similar to rolling, is usually upper-level kava buzz for me...i don't even attain it every time. and pushing beyond often leads to bad nausea. i don't think you're going to be able to make tonights trial any better without getting sick. you definitely need do it again for a couple days... high expectations can definitely decrease the ability to feel the full effects, especially the peaceful happy contentment. empty stomach is always important.....and sometimes you just have to find a strain that works better with you.

Seems that way. After 5 tablespoons via toss and wash, I feel a bit dizzy and light headed but not much else. I'm going to hold off and try again later this week.

I did have an empty stomach...hadn't eaten in 7 hours. Can't figure out how I achieved overwhelming results with my last kava session but underwhelming results with 15 tablespoons in a night.

Could just be that this strain isn't for me, like you said. The slight relaxation was nice though. If this is all there is to kava, I'll continue to consume it. It's very mild but has its uses.

 

[Rusty Shackleford]

Have you by any chance checked yourself for a pulse (I've read somewhere that Zombies are immune to Kava)?

Actually now that you mentioned it, it felt like my heart rate was actually increased at one point. Perhaps a bit of tachycardia. Not what I expected from a sedative. Nor did I expect jaw clenching and eye fluttering.

 

[Rusty Shackleford]

I just got up to get a glass of water, and my balance is definitely affected. It seems the 5 tablespoons via toss and wash induced dizziness and lack of balanace, but no noticeable increase in positive effects. Although the first batch (which I kneaded) was consumed 4 hours ago now, so maybe the toss and wash just maintained it and prevented the positive effects from wearing off.

 

[Skywalker]

I think we need a forum sticky post- kava first timer FAQs. Rusty - you won't know what all the fuss is about till you get through at least a pound. Reverse tolerance. Once through you'll know.

 

[Calpurrnia]

Sorry to hear this Rusty. . . i can understand how frustration it might be seeking releif from something praised by so many to only get mild effects, which most are negative. . . my first kava experience i prepared cold with some milk and kneaded for 20minutes to one of my favorite mozart piano concerto's... 21 andante btw

and had AMAZING effects the first time. . . after consuming nearly a pound in several days i've already noticed the feeling get strong without changing the dose.. i do believe there is some credible science to the reverse tolerance . . . i can assure its not a placebo and i can say again with certainty my prep method has been consistent. . . beyond kneading for different intervals being the only thing i've changed slightly by several minutes.....

i'm an ex drug addict and make no qualms about that . . . to reiterate about the placebo to assure i have merit.. i do feel something . . . and can not wait for you to feel something positive. .. keep at it...

i'll be listening

/salute

 

[Bula Kava House]

Okay, I'm not just saying this because I sell kava. You need to use more root. I know that people here talk about how nice the effects they get are from a few tablespoons and that's great for them, but that is not common in traditional kava prep and drinking. I've made kava with native drinkers in Hawaii, Vanuatu, and Fiji, they all use a ton of root to get the desired potency. The back of your bag has directions that say 1 part kava to 3-4 parts water. We put that on there because it's how it's been done for thousands of years and we feel it's the right amount, it's even how we make it at our kava bar. That means for 40 oz. (5 cups) of water you should have used about 1 1/2 cups of kava root. I'm thinking that's way more than 10 tablespoons. The next problem was likely the strainer. I find t-shirts to be too thick, they don't let enough of the good stuff through. The strainers we sell work great, but nylons work just fine too. Next, when kneading it should involve a lot of hard squeezing. Your forearm should be sore when you're done, after about 10-15 minutes. The kavalactones are in the root fiber, what you're essentially doing is saturating them with the water, squeezing out the compounds with that water, then repeating over and over again. Finally, maybe it just wasn't your day. I find the effects to vary widely from one day to the next and I really can't figure out why. The kava intoxication is fickle. Good luck.

 

[Deleted User01]

I like Judd's recipe. I use 1.5 cups of "good Kava" to yield (2) 16oz bottles and a little left over for a pick me up. There will be some water loss. And Rusty, everyone's body chemistry is different. I'm considered a liteweight, 2 shells and I'm done. Just stick to it, go slow so you don't make yourself sick, and be patient.

Out of curiosity, did you sleep well after the Kava?

 

[violet]

@Rusty Shackleford Drinking kava on an empty stomach is important if you want to feel the effects more strongly, but did you eat anything after you tossed and washed? Since some of the lactones are fat soluble, it makes sense to me that eating after a kava session could increase the potency of effects, especially if your digestive tract was pretty empty to begin with. A small meal containing fat will help you body uptake and absorb the fat soluble lactones.