Hello/First Post+Questions about Negative Effects/Dependence

[evrnd]

Hi everyone. I have been popping in from time to time for a while and spent a lot of time here learning prep techniques and the who/what would be worth my time and energy. I have used kava to help me sleep, relax, and improve my crappy moods. I tend to stick with micro since it's faster to "prep" and it has usually done the trick. I have used it almost every day since I started a few months ago.

I have experienced a few issues recently that have made me wonder a little:
1. I have experienced a sort of soul crushing, intense depression with a sudden scary onset 2-3 times the morning after a session or two. This has happened twice and I don't always keep track of the what but it is all noble from vetted vendors here. I have taken it to mean I need a break but this leads to my follow up:
2. I am currently taking a break and I am pretty confident (have lots of experience with different kinds in the past) that what I am experiencing would count as withdrawal. I am not saying it's severe and I'm going all Leonardo DiCapprio in Basketball Diaries or anything, but it most definitely feels like there is a physical dependence... at the very least physical "expectation" that is not being met? I was under the impression (especially from those that poo-poo other natural substances beginning with "k") that kava is pretty much harmless (I don't drink alcohol or use illicit substances), does not create a tolerance, and non-addictive. Psychologically speaking, I don't believe that is ever true with anything, but physically, I thought I was safe. The tolerance thing seems to possibly be not quite accurate either but that's another topic for another thread.

Anyone? Thanks in advance.

 

[Dr.Krunk]

How much do you consume during a session and how often do you have kava sessions? I am by no means a doctor as ironic as my name is so I can't say much about what you are calling withdrawal, but from my understanding kava isn't physically addictive. As you already stated you are aware about physiological addiction but I nor anyone here can diagnose that.

 

[Groggy]

Welcome to KF, anything in excess can be harmful in one way or another. I think that taking a break may be the right call for you. It took me while to find the right balance that worked for me, I have a tendency to overdo things, so like anything I think there is a learning curve.

 

[evrnd]

How much do you consume during a session and how often do you have kava sessions? I am by no means a doctor as ironic as my name is so I can't say much about what you are calling withdrawal, but from my understanding kava isn't physically addictive. As you already stated you are aware about physiological addiction but I not anyone here can diagnose that for you.

But your icon looks so official...?
2 tbs, wait 30 minutes, generally 2 tbs more, wait 30 mins, sometimes 1 tbs more - it all depends on how the first two work and how early I start/late I eat etc. Getting to the 5th tbs was not common until recently. I would say 4 tbs over an hour is my daily average but some nights it's just a nightcap before bed. And I wasn't asking if anyone could tell me if I was psychologically addicted, i ncase that wasn't clear. I just didn't expect to feel unwell from not taking it for a day or two.

 

[Dr.Krunk]

Most people here stick to medium grind but there's nothing wrong with micro if it works for you. With that said most people's suggestions on serving size is with medium grind. BTW welcome to the forums, we are glad to have you here!

 

[Dr.Krunk]

But your icon looks so official...?
2 tbs, wait 30 minutes, generally 2 tbs more, wait 30 mins, sometimes 1 tbs more - it all depends on how the first two work and how early I start/late I eat etc. Getting to the 5th tbs was not common until recently. I would say 4 tbs over an hour is my daily average but some nights it's just a nightcap before bed. And I wasn't asking if anyone could tell me if I was psychologically addicted, i ncase that wasn't clear. I just didn't expect to feel unwell from not taking it for a day or two.

From what you said it sounds like you were having sessions daily, how long have you had daily sessions?

 

[Groggy]

Maybe skip that nightcap so that you don't wake up feeling groggy or depressed. I stop drinking kava a few hours before bedtime, unless I have nowhere to be or do the next day.

 

[evrnd]

Welcome to KF, anything in excess can be harmful in one way or another. I think that taking a break may be the right call for you. It took me while to find the right balance that worked for me, I have a tendency to overdo things, so like anything I think there is a learning curve.

You and me both, man. I will say that, for the most part, the drive to overdo kave is subtle if not completely non-existent. It has been a welcome addition to my life. Minus the taste (ghack).

Daily sessions began about 2 months or so ago? I'd have to look for my first KWK order. It was around then.

And the nightcap (re; Krunky) is generally the only one for that night, with no ill effects. And even that is about an hour and a half before sleep.

 

[Groggy]

You and me both, man. I will say that, for the most part, the drive to overdo kave is subtle if not completely non-existent. It has been a welcome addition to my life. Minus the taste (ghack).

You'll get over that too

I used to despise the taste, now I look forward to it.

 

[Dr.Krunk]

Maybe skip that nightcap so that you don't wake up feeling groggy or depressed. I stop drinking kava a few hours before bedtime, unless I have nowhere to be or do the next day.

Yea I agree with what you stated, especially as lethargy can be present the next day. This wouldn't explain what he stated about being in a depressed state several days without taking it. Kavalactones can stay in the body for a period of time but from my understanding that shouldn't cause any ill effects.

 

[evrnd]

Yea I agree with what you stated, especially as lethargy can be present the next day. This wouldn't explain what he stated about being in a depressed state several days without taking it. Kavalactones can stay in the body for a period of time but from my understanding that shouldn't cause any ill effects.

Sorry for being unclear - the depression is sudden and then goes away if I leave kava alone for 24 hours. The phycial symptoms are what continue, but even those will probably go away fairly quickly. AND usually I don't feel too groggy. I get up at 5am every day and generally ride a bike for 2 hours (after coffee, of course).

If the depression thing happened all the time, I would just say kava and I can't be pals. But I truly wonder if it's a bad combo or something. Like I shouldn't use Nene after Mahakea or KWK after GHK or something.

 

[Dr.Krunk]

Sorry for being unclear - the depression is sudden and then goes away if I leave kava alone for 24 hours. The phycial symptoms are what continue, but even those will probably go away fairly quickly. AND usually I don't feel too groggy. I get up at 5am every day and generally ride a bike for 2 hours (after coffee, of course)

If the depression thing happened all the time, I would just say kava and I can't be pals. But I truly wonder if it's a bad combo or something. Like I shouldn't use Nene after Mahakea or KWK after GHK or som

What are your physical symptoms then? You may have mentioned them but I scanned back through and couldn't locate where you might have put them. As for combinations I suppose it is possible. I personally have not had issues with combining different strains but everyone's body chemistry is different.

 

[evrnd]

What are your physical symptoms then? You may have mentioned them but I scanned back through and couldn't locate where you might have put them. As for combinations I suppose it is possible. I personally have not had issues with combining different strains but everyone's body chemistry is different.

Temperature swings, headache, watery eyes, yawning, sleep disturbances, that sort of stuff. Sorry, I just assume everyone thinks of withdrawal the same way, which is dumb. I also don't know how long this will go on, but this is day 2. The last break I took I didn't notice anything besides the fog lifting.

 

[Dr.Krunk]

Oh wow, that's not good to hear. Kava helps me sleep much better. I've had issues with sleeping for years and this has been the first thing that has helped. Is it possible that you have gotten used to Kava as a sleep aid and that not using it has resulted in your tiredness due to a lack of restful sleep (REM?) As far as your other symptoms I can't say much on those. Do you have allergies maybe? Also I had to edit my post above about serving size. I don't know why I accidentally typed micro when meaning medium grind.

 

[The Kap'n]

I don't want to downplay here, but I was thinking allergies myself. It can absolutely make me feel like I'm in a mild withdrawal. The only other time I've personally seen someone who thought they were withdrawing, they were coming down with the flu.

 

[Dr.Krunk]

I know it would be an odd coincidence to have all those symptoms at the same time but I'm not sure if I have any other answers for you. I haven't heard of others with any sort of physical dependence with Kava. Maybe @verticity might be able to offer input.

 

[evrnd]

Unless kava is preventing the allergies the rest of the time, it's not allergies. Plus, I have plenty of experience with both to know the difference.

 

[The Kap'n]

Unless kava is preventing the allergies the rest of the time, it's not allergies. Plus, I have plenty of experience with both to know the difference.

Oh that's fair. Hopefully one of our kava science people will drop by with some insight into receptors and how kava works upon them in a way which would encourage or discourage a withdrawal type issue happening. its just something we're not used to dealing with as there are so few people who experience it. Not saying it can't happen though. Reality has ways of surprising us with things like that.

 

[Groggy]

We can consult the king of allergies @Squanch72, he has them all the time, it's terrible
He may also be able to offer some advice.

 

[Dr.Krunk]

The only other insight that I can offer is there have been members here that have had negative effects from certain strains. It would be hard to say which considering that you have used many different strains in what sounds like a relatively short period of time.