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Hello/First Post+Questions about Negative Effects/Dependence

evrnd

Kava Enthusiast
Thanks to everyone who chimed in, especially since it's my first post here.
I was just looking at another thread where the OP is talking about feeling disconnected and depressed but was taking what everyone seemed to think was too much. I settled on 2tbs at a time because it was what started working consistently. I know KWK suggests 2-4 tsp and clearly I exceed that. I have also wondered if micro sticks in your gut more and can build up and have negative effects. I know it probably clears out better than a lot of things but who knows?


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verticity

I'm interested in things
There are a couple issues here:

- Occasional episodes of depression related to kava. I have experienced this, but only when I mistakenly got some tudei that was not correctly labeled as such. The day following drinking that stuff I would often be kind of fatigued and morose, sometimes even quite depressed. I don't have that problem with noble kava, but I suppose it could be a possible effect for some people, especially with the heavier varieties. Kava does have a sedative effect, and if you overdo it, it is certainly possible that could happen (although for me it doesn't, and I drink fairly large quantities of noble kava, let's just say, more than the OP)

- Withdrawal: personally, I drink kava almost every day. However there have been some occasions where I go on a road trip for a couple days, or just go a day without kava, and I have never experienced any kind of withdrawal symptoms on those occasions. My understanding from the literature, and from other people's reports here is that physical withdrawal is pretty much unheard of. I think the next-day depressed feeling from tudei that I described above is just the lingering effects of long-acting kava, not withdrawal. In principle, kava does have some pharmacological actions that are similar to drugs that do cause physical withdrawal, in particular enhanced dopamine levels and effects on GABA receptors. However, all the actual evidence says that is not the case. This may be because the way kava effects dopamine and GABA is more similar to things like MAOIs and general anesthetics, respectively, which people don't normally develop tolerance to, as opposed to addictive stimulants or benzodiazapines.
 

Krunkie McKrunkface

Kava Connoisseur
Maybe skip that nightcap so that you don't wake up feeling groggy or depressed. I stop drinking kava a few hours before bedtime, unless I have nowhere to be or do the next day.
Yeah, I try to have as much time as I can between last shell and falling asleep but I really try to make sure no matter what it is at least an hour. I might go to bed mellow, but never krunk.
 
D

Deleted User01

Welcome to the forums. I think any botanical or drug that lifts your mood has the potential for the user to become dependent. Why? Because we don't want to feel like hell and so we continue to take kava to feel better. Let's face it, if you were happy, happy all the time then you wouldn't be here in the Kava Forums. Now the morning after effects can be different for people. I feel very mellow and rested in the morning but my mood can change as the day progresses and the mellowness wears off. But my mood can turn ugly on any day when the crap is hitting the fan. Let's just say that on Saturday morning, I never feel ugly after a Friday Kava Session. :D I also only do 2 doses on my kava days and I'm a big fan of Micro (like yourself) and for all the same reasons.

P.S. Do you ever feel that crushing depression on a Saturday (non working day) after a Friday session? I think this is an important question and based on my own experience.
 

Krunkie McKrunkface

Kava Connoisseur
Let's face it, if you were happy, happy all the time then you wouldn't be here in the Kava Forums.
I confess to being happy all the time. All my life. Didn't mean I haven't faced problems, but I was happy. It's a fluke and in some ways has been a curse as well as a blessing. But I am happy all the time and I can't help it. However, I'm not "happy, happy" all the time, like Happy Happy Joy Joy, but merely "happy all the time."
 
D

Deleted User01

I confess to being happy all the time. All my life. Didn't mean I haven't faced problems, but I was happy. It's a fluke and in some ways has been a curse as well as a blessing. But I am happy all the time and I can't help it. However, I'm not "happy, happy" all the time, like Happy Happy Joy Joy, but merely "happy all the time."
I too had a happy childhood and have a very positive attitude for the most part. But ... if you are in a stressful job things change. If you are surrounded with other peoples (relatives) problems, then things change. If everything in my life was perfect and I didn't have a penchant for drinking too much, I don't think I would do kava. I would be the All American Boy with no worries in the world and adored by all. So @Krunkie McKrunkface , why do you drink Kava? (By the way, "for shits and grins" would be an acceptable answer. :D )
 

Krunkie McKrunkface

Kava Connoisseur
So @Krunkie McKrunkface , why do you drink Kava? (By the way, "for shits and grins" would be an acceptable answer. :D )
Short answer: for shiggles, aka shits 'n giggles, which I agree is nothing to sneeze at and a perfectly valid dreason.

Long answer:

It was a last ditch attempt for my wife to deal with anxiety from a stressful job before going to the heavy hitters in the pharma world. I was determined to try the kava first as a guinea pig to figure out how to actually make and drink the stuff, and to make sure it was safe and wasn't just some placebo (you know, "herbal remedies" like echinacea preventing colds and stuff).

I quickly noticed my dreams were amazing, and oneironautics has been a hobby of mine for some time, I figured I'd keep drinking just for that (and I still do, it's amazing as a dream enhancer).

After a few weeks, she mentioned she'd read somewhere that some people drink larger doses sometimes because that feels good, so I had to check that out. Ahem. Well, you know my name, you can figure that whole story out.

Also, after a couple of months I noticed a whole bunch of changes happening and now, after six months my whole life is transformed and I look and feel completely different. I was an obese alcoholic suffering from a lifelong inflammatory condition. All that was dealt with. Oh, and the dandruff, too. And a bunch of other stuff. And it worked on her anxiety, too.

Now, I'm not saying it has had no effect on me in regards to anxiety just because I never suffered from anxiety. I've gone from not having anxiety, a kind of neutral position, the absence of anxiety, to some sort of positive condition where I have I dunno what the word for it or if there is one, but it's the opposite of anxiety. Calm? Maybe that's all it is, but like Kavasseur says in one of his videos "we take our relaxation really seriously" this is real serious relaxation, real serious calm. It's not just a body at rest without anxiety, it's a thing, a positive thing.

I also love Kavasseur's line "I didn't know I was an alcoholic till I stopped drinking." I like that on a bunch of levels, because I didn't "quit" drinking, like a deliberate act, I simply idn't drink any more, kava mada me stop drinking and it happened gradually but quickly and definitively and also painlessly and with no side effects and no regrets. Also, because I didn't have any "problem" with drinking, I always assumed I was not an alcoholic, but I look back now and figure I must have been, and that the whole point is pretty much mooted by kava. Kava allows me (and really encourages me!) to be who I am and who I am is not an alcoholic.

Sorry, TMI? I tend to talk a lot....

I am lucky in that I have just about the least stressful job in the universe (librarian in a village out of Norman Rockwell, the library is adequately funded and well used and appreciated and I'm widely appreciated by my community, which I am proud to serve). I also don't have any family problems or other problems that most people unfortunately have to face. In part I'm so happy because I am very very lucky, despite having no right to be. I spent years being troubled by that before I just learned to accept it and not fight it and be grateful. It just didn't seem fair. It still doesn't. But letting that render me dysfunctional wouldn't help anyone be better off no matter how much it served the interests of justice or fairness.

Finally, I would say that I drink kava 95% for health reasons and 5% for pleasure. The pleasure aspect appears more salient now, but that's part of an initial phase I'm going through as my body resets to where it should have been.
 
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D

Deleted User01

No, not too long, nice story. You answered the question when you mentioned alcohol and inflammation. Nice side story with your wife. So you thought you were a happy person but you felt the need to make yourself happier with alcohol. So maybe you weren't as happy as you thought. :LOL: But you certainly didn't suffer from depression. Anyway, looks like you are serious about your health and Kava is part of that equation. Thanks for posting your story.
 

Krunkie McKrunkface

Kava Connoisseur
No, not too long, nice story. You answered the question when you mentioned alcohol and inflammation. Nice side story with your wife. So you thought you were a happy person but you felt the need to make yourself happier with alcohol. So maybe you weren't as happy as you thought. :LOL: But you certainly didn't suffer from depression. Anyway, looks like you are serious about your health and Kava is part of that equation. Thanks for posting your story.
No, I have never suffered from real depression, neither, but I have suffered from artificially-induced depression.

One of the bad things that happens with my inflammatory condition is iritis, an acute and very painful and dangerous inflammation of the iris that must be treated immediately with drops of prednisalone forte, related to prednisone. It clears up the iritis for me but one side effect is an artificially-induced attack of depression during the few days I have to be using the drops.

As near as I can gather, what I feel is exactly what a typical episode (not a major or suicidal type, just a typical bad episode) of depression is like, an attack, , sit on the couch enveloped in sadness, incapable of getting up or doing anything because everything is awful and there is no point to anything. Of course, I don't actually suffer the way someone with actual depression does because I know I'm not actually depressed, this isn't the way I feel, and I will soon feel better. So I can't claim to know depression, even as I can claim to have felt its symptoms, because of course some of the worst parts of being depressed aren't just the bad feelings but the felling that this is how you are supposed to feel and there is no end in sight. So, I am grateful for the experience because it gives me some insight and a great deal more sympathy for people who have to deal with depression than I would otherwise.

Though I have not similarly suffered any artificially-induced anxiety, I do have an appreciation that there is something at this kind of level that needs to be appreciated to the extent that we who do not experience it are capable of. Also, living with someone you love who experienced for quite some time "mild" anxiety, which is pretty damn bad right there, you see what they are going through, you see how they suffer, it at least gives me some idea, even though I can never really claim to know.
 

Krunkaroo

Kava Enthusiast
I started taking micro everyday recently and I noticed anxiety. I switched to alternating with medium grind and skipping a day between sessions, the anxiety factor was gone.

Also pay attention to strains. I have to be careful with loa waka micro as it can stimulate me way too much.
 
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evrnd

Kava Enthusiast
Welcome to the forums. I think any botanical or drug that lifts your mood has the potential for the user to become dependent. Why? Because we don't want to feel like hell and so we continue to take kava to feel better. Let's face it, if you were happy, happy all the time then you wouldn't be here in the Kava Forums. Now the morning after effects can be different for people. I feel very mellow and rested in the morning but my mood can change as the day progresses and the mellowness wears off. But my mood can turn ugly on any day when the crap is hitting the fan. Let's just say that on Saturday morning, I never feel ugly after a Friday Kava Session. :D I also only do 2 doses on my kava days and I'm a big fan of Micro (like yourself) and for all the same reasons.

P.S. Do you ever feel that crushing depression on a Saturday (non working day) after a Friday session? I think this is an important question and based on my own experience.
Sorry to disappear after everyone took the time to help out. Since I originally posted this I broke myself->had surgery -> was trying to lay off the kava while on a lot of pain meds but I am back at it now.
It would appear that my withdrawal like symptoms must have been from a combo of other things I can't go into here.

As far as the soul-crushing-depression feeling on some days... well, the jury is out on that one and I think I need to do more research and keep track of: what and how much of it I chug and how much I have slept. I think the few times this has happened have only been during the week but it would make sense that having a kava marathon on Sunday might have a negative impact on Monday, especially if it's been a few kava heavy days in a row. I do everything with gusto and am pretty bad at half-assery. I would not be surprised if it is something like an induced-happiness-removal situation. The only reason it struck me so much is that it wasn't just a "bummer" low level kind of thing. It was like an intense despair sort of feeling. out of nowhere that last less than 24 hours.

Anywho. I wanted to thank everyone for all their help - more will be revealed I guess. I just placed another order from GHK, this time for medium grind (big SIGH of laziness), and I look forward to participating more on this forum. You guys have a good thing going and I dig it.
 

Pounigirl

Kava Enthusiast
Short answer: for shiggles, aka shits 'n giggles, which I agree is nothing to sneeze at and a perfectly valid dreason.

Long answer:

It was a last ditch attempt for my wife to deal with anxiety from a stressful job before going to the heavy hitters in the pharma world. I was determined to try the kava first as a guinea pig to figure out how to actually make and drink the stuff, and to make sure it was safe and wasn't just some placebo (you know, "herbal remedies" like echinacea preventing colds and stuff).

I quickly noticed my dreams were amazing, and oneironautics has been a hobby of mine for some time, I figured I'd keep drinking just for that (and I still do, it's amazing as a dream enhancer).

After a few weeks, she mentioned she'd read somewhere that some people drink larger doses sometimes because that feels good, so I had to check that out. Ahem. Well, you know my name, you can figure that whole story out.

Also, after a couple of months I noticed a whole bunch of changes happening and now, after six months my whole life is transformed and I look and feel completely different. I was an obese alcoholic suffering from a lifelong inflammatory condition. All that was dealt with. Oh, and the dandruff, too. And a bunch of other stuff. And it worked on her anxiety, too.

Now, I'm not saying it has had no effect on me in regards to anxiety just because I never suffered from anxiety. I've gone from not having anxiety, a kind of neutral position, the absence of anxiety, to some sort of positive condition where I have I dunno what the word for it or if there is one, but it's the opposite of anxiety. Calm? Maybe that's all it is, but like Kavasseur says in one of his videos "we take our relaxation really seriously" this is real serious relaxation, real serious calm. It's not just a body at rest without anxiety, it's a thing, a positive thing.

I also love Kavasseur's line "I didn't know I was an alcoholic till I stopped drinking." I like that on a bunch of levels, because I didn't "quit" drinking, like a deliberate act, I simply idn't drink any more, kava mada me stop drinking and it happened gradually but quickly and definitively and also painlessly and with no side effects and no regrets. Also, because I didn't have any "problem" with drinking, I always assumed I was not an alcoholic, but I look back now and figure I must have been, and that the whole point is pretty much mooted by kava. Kava allows me (and really encourages me!) to be who I am and who I am is not an alcoholic.

Sorry, TMI? I tend to talk a lot....

I am lucky in that I have just about the least stressful job in the universe (librarian in a village out of Norman Rockwell, the library is adequately funded and well used and appreciated and I'm widely appreciated by my community, which I am proud to serve). I also don't have any family problems or other problems that most people unfortunately have to face. In part I'm so happy because I am very very lucky, despite having no right to be. I spent years being troubled by that before I just learned to accept it and not fight it and be grateful. It just didn't seem fair. It still doesn't. But letting that render me dysfunctional wouldn't help anyone be better off no matter how much it served the interests of justice or fairness.

Finally, I would say that I drink kava 95% for health reasons and 5% for pleasure. The pleasure aspect appears more salient now, but that's part of an initial phase I'm going through as my body resets to where it should have been.
Awesome post Krunkie! Thank you so much for being so open. Like you, I started on the kava journey to try to help someone else as well and I wanted to be the guinea pig on their behalf. I still haven't found a kava yet that I can give him other than the candies, but I am just at the beginning and have lots of kava to try still. :) I never imagined that I would like it so much and want to be drinking it all time. :) I'm glad that your life has been so trouble free. I wish everybody's life was. Bula!
 

Krunkie McKrunkface

Kava Connoisseur
I still haven't found a kava yet that I can give him other than the candies, but I am just at the beginning and have lots of kava to try still. :)
At the risk of sounding like a god damn man trying to solve a problem a woman did not ask for help with, I suggest the next step might be the Kalm with Kava concentrate, available on Amazon. It's expensive, but extremely good, though not for krunking, which is not what it's for, anyway (although I do like to drink it in addition to grog when I am krunking). Tastes great with plain water and slightly better with club soda or sparkling mineral water.

Then work up to something like a third wash mocha kava.....
 

Pounigirl

Kava Enthusiast
At the risk of sounding like a god damn man trying to solve a problem a woman did not ask for help with, I suggest the next step might be the Kalm with Kava concentrate, available on Amazon. It's expensive, but extremely good, though not for krunking, which is not what it's for, anyway (although I do like to drink it in addition to grog when I am krunking). Tastes great with plain water and slightly better with club soda or sparkling mineral water.

Then work up to something like a third wash mocha kava.....
Oh Krunkie, if you only knew how much your unsolicited advice was welcomed and appreciated by me! There are SO MANY kavas out there and even though some I would like to try just for my own enjoyment. The priority is to find one to help my family members who really really need it. No worries at all about offense. I'm not that kind of girl who gets offended very easily and huffy, I'm a Tomboy Floridian, and pretty laid back if I can say so myself. And if you haven't noticed about me yet, I like to talk so any conversation is always welcome. :)

Basically I'm looking for kava to help three people in my family and one friend. One has profound Autism and harms himself. Doctors just want to drug him up with pharmaceuticals. He needs a kava that can really calm him down and help him deal with his sensory overload from the outside world. With him some mild krunk would be okay as long as it's not drool inducing, kwim? The other person is also Autistic but high functioning. She has terrible anxiety issues because the world doesn't work in a way that makes sense to her. She also has OCD and ADHD and has trouble focusing, trouble with relationships with other people and navigating interactions and mostly with managing her emotions and violent mood swings. She needs something that can help her with those issues. She also has a really sensitive gag reflex so in her case more than any of the others it has to taste good whatever she takes although all of them really need something palatable but with good effects. The other family member has suffered with chronic insomnia for decades! She just can never get any good sleep. She wants something that is palatable, but can handle a little bit of unpleasantness as long as it's not total witches brew type stuff, kwim? In her case, she wants something simple to prepare because she's a person who cannot be bothered if something is too "fussy". I was thinking of some type of micro for her, but I kinda worry about the dermo issues with that and was doing more product research. I was looking at the KWK concentrates as well and the Root of Happiness Co2 something or other. It's got like a long name that I am too lazy to go look up right now, but it's like a paste and I also am looking at the Kava Time kavacocoa. Do you have experience with all of those three? The last person I'm trying to help is a dear friend of my who has OCD and is taking Zoloft for it. She gets horrible intrusive thoughts and the OCD just takes over her entire life. She is such a dear dear friend to my heart and I really want to help her if I can, but I am so new to kava and I have no idea about drug interactions with prescription meds. I'd love to find something for her that give her more help either working with her meds or (best case scenario) allowing her to get off her meds entirely. In her case a kava that turn the mind noise off would be best. I'm not sure how tolerant she is of bad tasting things. So there is my book done! hehehe Any advice or pointers you have so that I could help these people find a natural, effective remedy would be wonderful. I would be so so grateful to find something that can help ease their suffering. :)
 

Krunkie McKrunkface

Kava Connoisseur
Oh Krunkie
Small world, my youngest is severely autistic and non-verbal. And also has sensory integration disorder and a seizure disorder. He is also about the nicest person you could ever meet, and leads a good life and a happy one. I believe there are a number of us here who are either autistic or have close family members who are. You found the right place if that's what you you don't mind stumbling upon.

Just a thought: even if kava can't help any of those dear to you directly by giving it to them, it can help them by making you better so that you can better help them. It's very hard to help others in this world, and it's not all or nothing. This is what I found from long and painful experience, and I give it you free, to take or leave as you see fit.
 

Pounigirl

Kava Enthusiast
Small world, my youngest is severely autistic and non-verbal. And also has sensory integration disorder and a seizure disorder. He is also about the nicest person you could ever meet, and leads a good life and a happy one. I believe there are a number of us here who are either autistic or have close family members who are. You found the right place if that's what you you don't mind stumbling upon.

Just a thought: even if kava can't help any of those dear to you directly by giving it to them, it can help them by making you better so that you can better help them. It's very hard to help others in this world, and it's not all or nothing. This is what I found from long and painful experience, and I give it you free, to take or leave as you see fit.
Thanks so much Krunkie. Do you mind if I PM you and pick your brain a bit?
 

Krunkie McKrunkface

Kava Connoisseur
Thanks so much Krunkie. Do you mind if I PM you and pick your brain a bit?
no prob, or then I can give you my email. Or maybe even we could do a kava circle on hangouts for those of us in these kinds of situations. I, of course, am in immense frustration because I know kava would help my son but would probably interact horribly with his anti-seizure meds.
 

Pounigirl

Kava Enthusiast
no prob, or then I can give you my email. Or maybe even we could do a kava circle on hangouts for those of us in these kinds of situations. I, of course, am in immense frustration because I know kava would help my son but would probably interact horribly with his anti-seizure meds.
HUGS! I hope you can find something to help your son. Autism is heart breaking I know! ::hugsmiley::
 
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