"Deleted User, post: 38481, member: 533"]Yes, by "smoking gun" I mean the true culprit responsible for liver damage. And I agree, we may never have an exact answer concerning the cases reported circa 2000 which caused all the uproar. The evidence for those cases was never well documented, so solving them is impossible. The best description of a cause for those cases that I have read comes from an article by E. Ernst, who states "An immunologically mediated idiosyncratic reaction appears to be the most likely explanation, particularly at high dosesI don't know". But remember, this is in reference to poorly documented prior cases involving solvent extracts of unknown quality and content, so one can hardly expect more.
His further statements shed more light: "The constituents of kava, flavokavin B and pipermethystine, have been shown to be cytotoxic in vitro, but other studies seem to show an absence of toxicity in therapeutic doses or even a hepatoprotective effect". Ernst is not the only one with these views, they are fairly universal among kava scientists. Three factors here - FKB, pipermethystine, and dose. One can assume "dose" does not apply to pipermethystine, since it is a known alkaloid poison and is present only in aerial parts of the plant. Dose does apply to FKB, and we know tudei has it in at least 4x the concentration of noble. We also know extracts are an issue because of unknown elements extracted, and that concomitant medication may be a factor.
If it happens again - and it easily could - the FDA will take the opportunity. The case (or cases) may be researched, the cause may be found, but at that point it will make little difference. So to me, identifying the actual culprit so we can decide what kava to drink is not the main goal. occurring.
If you like drinking tudei, I have no issue with that. They are working now to prove their advice is correct, but they don't recommend waiting for results, they say "drink traditionally prepared noble, avoid tudei". So that's what I encourage everyone to do.
I know this is way up in the thread but
@Global Kava Exports Sorry sir I completely understand your opinion (I know you don't have much time), though to have a cohesive debate I must present the case that you're right...in the fact that we should be talking about others because it's not just Vanuatu whom's at the drawing board here it's Fiji and other island nations in the south pacific too because as Deleted User has stated before the proof is in the pudding. You're gonna have to bear with me because I'm aware not everyone has the time on their hands to keep up with the information pool on these forums but here's a post I made on a thread which outlines the "conclusiveness" of Tudei results. Now before it's brought up I warn you this next post is lengthy but worth the read if you don't want to sift through the kavapedia to find the necessary info.
First off the color coding has to do with a test that we're familiar with at the forums called an acetone tudei test; acetone because this is what is needed to determine whether or not a kava is "noble" or "tudei". Tudei is simply another name for a type of cultivar (plant propagated by cuttings or stems rather than by seed) of kava and is *related* to a native kava in vanuatu called Wichimanni or wild kava.
Here's the difference, wild kava when tested through use of acetone turns the acetone a tusty brown color proving that it's truly unsuitable for drinking and will likely cause effects ranging from: Prolonged duration of up-to 2 days+ not including after effects. The side effects of a wild kava range from moderate to excessive and a truly wild kava is known to cause bloodshot eyes, exceptional dermopathy rash (crocodile like sand paper skin) which's severe enough to crack, bleed and burn like a prevalent psoriasis, diarrhea, lethargy, headache etc... you get the picture and it's not a pretty one. This cultivar is not distributed outside of vanuatu due to legal issues (within vanuatu it may be rarely used in ritualistic ceremonies whereas tudei is used slightly more often)....on the other hand tudei *is* and in some cases is adulterated into a noble variety to add some kick to a kava they fear may not be as profitable otherwise (still illegal per Vanuatu law to export tudei but sadly remains un-enforced). Tudei have relatively similar effects minus the bloodshot eyes (I can't be sure of this) and are of a lesser severity but are none the less nothing to take lightly.
Here's what's of the most pertinence...we have results to represent the growing documentation of evidence comparing and contrasting nobility of kava and in opposition tudei or tudei adulteration (again adding tudei kava or "two day" to a noble (safe) kava in order to increase potency) but it's not 100% conclusive; because of careful measures in place to prevent confusion, but i'd be hard pressed to even think about writing off the developments.
Anyways I'll withhold my banter and present you some threads and images so you may be able to make a conscientious decision of whether or not the tudei is how you want to spend your day.
Also I'm not implying you're ignorant or that you shouldn't do so if that's what you wish to do because it's your body and not mine; I think everyone should have the choice of making an 'informed' decision based on facts of a matter.
Without further adieu the info.
http://kavaforums.com/forum/threads/the-safety-of-kava-how-to-test-yours.2576/
This is the entire first thread and it's a great starting point for anyone interested in employing this test for themselves....credit given to Infraredz for the thread and Headhodge(?) for the compilation of all the info into the kavapedia. Multitudinous questions are brought up and than answered within the thread so I'll not address them here because it's such a massive amount of data in and of itself. Though I have no problem posting the pictures.
Btw for the most part the results in these pictures I'm about to post should be taken with a grain of salt. It's not that they're wrong but because of the member Harpos far more specific spectroscopy results he has developed.
Nakamal@homes Solomon Island on the left.
Bula kava house Boroguru on the left and the same vendors Koniak on the right.
These are the results of infraredz testing.
Koniak is dark orange to slightly brown showing an interesting "correlation". The boroguru is clear-er but maintains a rather dark orange in contrast to the Solomon Island kava. What we've all come to realize though is that the eye is easily deceived. It'll be obvious just what I mean when I present Harpos much more exacting tests.
Kapms results.
Hawaiian kava center Isa on the left and Bula kava house Borogu on the right.
*Keep in mind that a pure isa contrasted to an adulteration (not saying that the Borogu is adulterated, it's just a tip) or a cultivar which exhibits tudei properties can appear rather drastic*
Violets results won't post atm...sorry @violet
Three different noble Hawaiian kava varieties from Gourmet Hawaiian kava.
A sample of Hawaiian isa...very rusty dark orange/brown color indicates it's an isa in Hawaii or called tudei in Vanuatu; I suppose it's same difference.
I must apologize to mr.skunk or
@Roaddog.
Your results won't post for w/e reason either. As of late I'm also unable to post any gifs whether or not they're under the 3.3mb limit.
Onto the nexthttp://kavaforums.com/forum/wiki/kavapedia-bridge/?{Action}={FetchPageContent}&{Title}={The Current Vanuatu kava situation - Drinking Noble isn't as easy as we thought...}&{Author}={Deleted User}&{Date}={Aug 13, 2014}&{Location}={
http://kavaforums.com/forum/threads...nking-noble-isnt-as-easy-as-we-thought.3189/}
This link also happens to explain itself rather easily but pictures speak thousands of words and It shouldn't hurt to contribute more.
Here'shttp://kavaforums.com/forum/wiki/kavapedia-bridge/?{Action}={FetchPageContent}&{Title}={More%20pictures%20of%20Simple%20Test%20for%20Checking%20if%20your%20Kava%20is%20Tudei}&{Author}={Gourmet%20Hawaiian%20Kava}&{Date}={May%2030,%202014}&{Location}={
http://kavaforums.com/forum/threads...est-for-checking-if-your-kava-is-tudei.2616/} another great thread that Chris from GHK created. And the pics:
7 different kavas and apparently the first 3 are confirmed noble by Chris.
I'll go ahead and directly quote this one.
"The next picture is 4 different samples next to each other, starting on the left the first is pure noble, 2nd is 1/8 isa to 7/8, 3rd is 1/4 isa to 3/4, the 4th is 100% isa."
Ratio for the jar dead center is 1/8 isa to 7/8th noble.
1/4th isa & 3/4 noble to the left...50/50 to the right.
100% isa, notice the blatant orange color...this's supposedly attributed to an orange molecule only present in tudei/isa kava and it's yet to be identified as to its origins or why only tudei/isa contains this molecule.
This's derived from the stalks of the kava plant...and though any areal portions of a kava plant have been found to contain the toxic piper methystin or however it's pronounced; the stalks are absent of the strange orange color.
From the leaves- It's quite obvious that the acetone's saturated with chlorophyll but nothing amiss as far as this test was concerned.
Co2 extract made with purely noble kava. It's definitely a nice golden color but I can't help but take notice of the green tinge. This might just be a trick of the camera and as I said before our eyes can play games with us; this goes for the camera as well.
That concludes that wonderful kavapedia listing and all credit goes to Chris for his marvelous effort.
Nexthttp://kavaforums.com/forum/wiki/kavapedia-bridge/?{Action}={FetchPageContent}&{Title}={Revised Kava Test Results}&{Author}={Deleted User}&{Date}={Aug 14, 2014}&{Location}={
http://kavaforums.com/forum/threads/revised-kava-test-results.3195/}
These nifty little charts I'm about to post are courtesy of Harpos work and I hope others will come to understand the brevity of his determination.
The numbers mean nothing to a layman without accurate comparisons...which are built into the chart.
Here's the color coding which has'd many people baffled but I'm attempting to explain bit by bit how it all pieces together.
The updated chart.
Obiwans results.
"From left to right these are the Kavas:
1 Tongan Pride (KbR), bought May 2013
2 Fu'u from BKH, bought May 2014
3 Nambawan from US ebay seller shamanstools, bought 12/2013
4 Stone from nakamal@home, bought 10/2013
5 Borogu from BKH, bought May 2014
6 Vanuatu Isa/Tudei Speciality from KbR , bought 08/2013
7 Tanna Marang-Marang from GKE , bought February 2014"
All credit goes to Obiwan.
11 year waka tested by Deleted User.
It seems proper to refrain from posting the actual results from the "latest test results" thread by Deleted User chiefly because you'd need to read the whole thread in detail to understand the pictures hahaha. That's not essentially a bad thing but it can certainly be a brain bender without taking everything bit by bit.
Here'shttp://kavaforums.com/forum/wiki/kavapedia-bridge/?{Action}={FetchPageContent}&{Title}={Latest%20Test%20Results...}&{Author}={Deleted User}&{Date}={Tuesday%20at%202:00%20PM}&{Location}={
http://kavaforums.com/forum/threads/latest-test-results.3335/} the latest test results from Deleted User.
Congratulations, you've arrived at the end of my gargantuan post and I'll be ecstatic if anyone found use for any of it and didn't dislike that it's sort of a massive echo of all the results up till now.
My original intention was to give you a helping hand Tasha but it's evolved into a 1 stop quick shop for anyone that finds sifting though the forums difficult.
Most importantly, however kava's involved in your life, remember the culture, smile and have fun on the forums. We're a little quirky at times but luckily that's reserved for a insert title here Friday.
Enjoy the rest of your weekend; tomorrow is my special grog preparation day and I'm gonna try to make the most of it.
@HeadHodge You of course don't have to but if it's not a big deal can you fix my embedded links so they appear correctly?
I'm not sure what I did wrong but If I need to I'll fix them later.
Last edited: Sep 6, 2014
Who knows I may be alone with this disposition
, but Gke for the reasoning you contend that it's of the utmost importance for these individuals to make a living...it's of the same pertinence that people all across the world have the ability to address their need for transparency from the bottom to the top of the food chain if you may. If that factor endangers the livelihood of them and their families would kava not gain grounds for nobility that much more given the fact of how demand for the noble cultivars in question would increase? All we want is a "valued purchase=valued customer" consensus here, if that's too much to ask of a distributor than we have no choice but to deliberate among ourselves for cautionary purposes if nothing else.
I hope it's understandable that whilst bashing's unnecessary, that's not exactly what's going on when I'm ingesting a substance without any true regulatory standards...without even interjecting the tudei debacle it should be obvious where the concerns arise.
@Deleted User So as to not leave you "dazed and confused"
as to why I've quoted your post in the first place it's to help emphasize the point you've made in your more recent post.
"This is not about whether or not tudei is actually safe, it is about saving kava. If we don't follow the advice of leading scientists and self regulate now, and other cases of liver failure surface, we won't need to debate about which kava to drink - we won't have any" -Quoted Deleted User
Btw, I don't "loathe" any vendors on this forum for any of their opinions they may have but I can't stand up for an intellectual that might go so far as to defend their right to purposely market an adulterated kava. That Is what I call grosse negligence...
“I will not eat them in a house, I will not eat them with a mouse, I will not eat them in a box, I will not eat them with a fox, I will not eat them here nor there, I will not eat them anywhere, I do not like green eggs and ham I do not like them sam I am” -Dr.Seuss
The trite saying that honesty is the best policy has met with the just criticism that honesty is not policy. The real honest man is honest from conviction of what is right, not from policy. -Robert. E lee
Treat those who are good with goodness, and also treat those who are not good with goodness. Thus goodness is attained. Be honest to those who are honest, and be also honest to those who are not honest. Thus honesty is attained.-Lao Tzu
Update- *I promise to update this post with the latest results and fix the links eventually once I actually happen to have some down time. As of now the information is accurate but in specific Harpos results have been amended a couple times since my Sep 6 posting.*
I'm also on board with the "do what you see fit" disposition; it's your body and do as you wish but don't we all agree that's a tough decision when a noble kava becomes adulterated with the aforementioned tudei? 
Truth in advertising for sure. 
