Honesty of Kava Vendors

[The Kap'n]

I think we're blessed here at kavaforums. Although we're going through a bit of a rough patch with some of our vendors I can say that we have been very lucky to have the involvement of these vendors, even if they don't post all the time.

My question to the kava community is this. How important is the honesty, and truthfulness of your kava supplier? I'm not calling out any vendors we support on this forum because they do care, and do listen to us. I'm just wondering overall, how much does that matter to you guys when you go to buy your kava?

 

[sɥɐʞɐs]

Vendor honesty and truth in advertising are always important, but the level of it's importance rises when your health may be at stake. And that's more like what we've got going on here.
And yes, we have the freedom to poison ourselves with many things...but if we do, we should be able to do so knowingly. Not lied to, no switcheroos...If I buy Advil I expect it not to be Tylenol. If I buy Kava, I expect it to be exactly what the label says.

 

[TheKavaSociety]

It's a rhetorical question. Nobody wants dishonest and untrustworthy vendors. We all want to get what we pay for.

The issue is a bit more complex though. While honest labelling should be the non-negotiable standard practice, I think vendors should also at the very least offer some basic info on the dangers associated with tudei/mould/PM. In an ideal world they simply should not be selling dangerous products unless they can make sure that their clients fully understand the dangers. After all, people shouldn't need to read academic publications and hundreds of pages of discussions in order to be able to buy a safe kava/understand that some products may be dangerous.

Do you remember when you bought your first kava? Did you pay attention to chemotype, acetonic test results or the information on cultivar? Would you not have bough a kava labelled as "This is a prime tudei kava mixture of roots and fresh aerial parts containing 100% pure exotic pipermethystine and original Vanuatan mould" if it had been sold on a nice-looking website with beautiful pictures and good "testimonials"?

 

[Prince Philip]

Since we all want to be told the truth, I think it's important not to sell non-consumables intended for consumption. E.g., don't sell an "incense" you know damned well is going to be smoked or eaten or otherwise put into someone's body. Kava isn't a grey-market drug, it's a lifestyle, so treating it like a grey market dishonors the kava.

Don't call it Tudei. One could argue that Tudei only apply to specific strains of kava illegal to export from Vanuatu. Now, things like Madang Short or ISA may be very close to those varieties, but they're not those varieties. Calling it Tudei sounds like you're clickbaiting the newbs. That's evil.

 

[Deleted User01]

How important is it that my Pharmacist is selling me the correct drugs I ordered? Damn important I might say. The real beef I have is that when it is found that their Kava is not as advertised, then they become argumentative instead of attempting to rectify the problem. It really makes the whole Kava Industry look shady and underhanded. Kava will never gain legitimacy as long as the Vendors continue with this type of behavior.

 

[ApéroNoble]

How important is it that my Pharmacist is selling me the correct drugs I ordered? Damn important I might say. The real beef I have is that when it is found that their Kava is not as advertised, then they become argumentative instead of attempting to rectify the problem. It really makes the whole Kava Industry look shady and underhanded. Kava will never gain legitimacy as long as the Vendors continue with this type of behavior.

Yeah the pharmaceutical comparison is not ill suited per se imo, lots of folks one meets here use kava instead / in place of prescriptions in attempts for betterment. All the more reason we've got to have 100% compliance in truthful labeling. Last thing folks unhinged and in distress reaching out for natural remedies need are shady shyster companies causing them further unwellness.

 

[Prince Philip]

OK, granted... we're taking Vanuatu-specific terms and generalizing them. I think it could potentially confused those new to kava, especially as the Law of the Forbidden applies to illicit kavas.

With that granted, it raises another question. Some places only sell ISA. Is it dishonest to not say, 'this really isn't suited to daily drinking, and flies in the face of three-thousand years of human cultivation to produce kavas high in kavain and low in double-bonded lactones.

I understand, stock issues happen. Kava has done very well in terms of natural selection to be distasteful to fungi, but kava weevils happen. Natural disasters happen. But, to me, going to a website that has kava for sale and seeing nothing but ISA in terms of powder is like walking into Whole Foods and finding they only have desserts, confections, and fizzy sweet drinks available. Sure, maybe as far as donuts go the donuts made with organic whole grains, fair-trade sugar, and grass-fed butter is better, but it's still a donut.

I am the last person to poo-poo Tudei-style kavas. I'm drinking Solomon right now. However, they don't call me "the Duke of Edinborogu" for no reason. Nobel Kavas were cultivated by our ancestors for three thousand years because they're the best.

 

[HeadHodge]

I believe in trust but verify. Give a vendor the benefit of doubt but make them verify their products. I think the acetone is a good first start (depending who is doing the test, for sure not the vendor). But I'd much prefer to see the vendor pay for a trusted 3rd party to do a chemical analysis of their products. The acetone is an indicator, but the chemical analysis is actual proof. Maybe that's a possible line of business for @Deleted User, if he could get the proper equipment to do that sort of test.
(I think chris from GHK has access to that sort of equipment, but by being a vendor, it's a conflict of interest for him to be doing that sort of thing)

 

[Roaddog]

Yes. I think its important for venders to be honest. I mean just because there Kava is adulterated, does not mean they will loose business. I am not apposed to drinking Kava that's adulterated, as long as I know it before hand. But with that said, I try to stick to Nobel for the most part. But I want these venders to simply be honest about what they are packaging. Much love. Roaddog....

 

[ApéroNoble]

@HeadHodge - http://kavalounge.yuku.com/topic/15...-you-should-probably-stop?page=1#.VCRr9vldUsw

It may not be a bad idea to have an automatic notice appear for upcoming members which ask they take a few moments to watch the above

 

[Global Kava Exports]

I'd like to remind people that these tests are inconclusive. I see on different threads a little Vanuatu bashing. It's subtle, but it is apparent that Vanuatu is being picked on to a large degree. People posting here have the intelligence and the decency not to outright point the finger at who they blame for this 'spiking' but it's quite obvious if you read enough threads that Vanuatu is being blamed the most and it's getting a little too much in my opinion. I am trying my best to come on here more often and read more threads but I simply can't manage it right now. So the best I can do is post my thoughts on this below.

What I want to say is that the tests being conducted and their results are not 100% proven to be correct. The people carrying out the tests have all the best intentions but they must remember that there could be any number of reasons why the tests are showing these results, it could be the simplest of things yet overlooked and these reasons might not be Tudei spiking and in my opinion ARE NOT Tudei spiking. I am not going to say any more as there is ongoing efforts to solve the mystery of why good Kava is showing as spiked in these tests, I myself and others are doing all we can to work it out.

I would like to remind people that the farmers in Vanuatu had to be talked into planting Kava again because a lot of them stopped when the EU restrictions came into effect, Kava is a crop which as you know can only be harvested after a number of years. It is a lot more certain when you plant Yams etc that you will get a quick harvest and a definite income. A lot of these farmers had to be convinced (and in many cases it took a lot of convincing) to plant Kava again, it was not an easy task. These farmers, their families, the seamen who take the Kava from the small islands to the big ones (Efate and Espirito Santo mostly), the seamens families, the people who work at Kava processing on the main islands, their families and the people who work in Kava exports and their families ALL depend on Kava for their income, plus all the people locally who benefit from Kava income which trickles down. That means that without Kava they cannot afford to pay the teachers to educate their children, to pay for basic amenities, medical care and and anything else they most definitely need. Vanuatu is not an easy country to live in unless you are politically connected or are a foreigner who has flown in with massive capital and can live like a king and use and a lot of the time abuse the locals for labour to profit themselves. Most Ni-Vans struggle just to feed their families and keep a roof over their head. And by a roof over their head I mean the shacks which the majority of the people live in. These homes consist of a mud floor, some corrugated iron, chipboard and even cardboard (yes, people in paradise live in what are basically cardboard boxes). Imagine what happens when typhoon season strikes.

A lot of good, decent, honest people survive on the farming of Kava and it's export from Vanuatu and until we know FOR SURE that these test results are 100% correct then I would like to ask people to lay off the Vanuatu bashing. It has the potential of putting the livelihoods of thousands of people in jeopardy. Vanuatu is the undisputed root of Kava on this planet, it is where Kava originated from and it has a right to a fair trial and make no mistake this is a fucking trial from what I have seen on this forum. Some people are treating Vanuatu like it is guilty before it can even prove its innocence. Things happen slowly in Vanuatu and everyone must accept this and wait and see what responses we get regarding these tests. I don't believe that Tudei should be sold as Noble and I believe that people have a right to know what they are ingesting but for the love of Kava don't do what Germany and the EU did in 2002 by jumping the gun and making statements and declarations about Kava which HAVE NOT BEEN PROVEN. If you do then you are no better than the bureaucrats who damned it back in 2002 and have caused all these problems to date (in Europe in particular). You are trying to do the right thing and are trying to ensure that Kava is labelled properly so that the European situation does not happen elsewhere and this is admirable but hold back and think, think about the consequences of your actions because instead of being the upright saviours of Kava that you think you are being you may well be the next bunch of people who destroy the reputation of Kava because you didn't have the patience to wait and see what the actual truth is.

Thank you for taking the time to read this, please now give the people in Vanuatu the time to evaluate your tests and respond.

 

[ApéroNoble]

"I don't believe that Tudei should be sold as Noble and I believe that people have a right to know what they are ingesting"
^^^ this is all I wish.
I thought the problem was wide spread not just limited to Vanuatu. Is one of the problems that Vanuatu does not have enough Noble kava so they have to sell tudei?

 

[Roaddog]

Wow @Global Kava Exports , Maybe its best if a newbie like me, respond to your post. Allow me to start by saying, you laid your opinion out so well. I'm impressed. Also It seems that we are all on the same page, by wanting to know, what we are consuming. I found your opinion so very interesting. I think you layed out Kavas path, from root to us purchasing it well. I must say, I have learned some priceless information, about something I can tell, You are so very Passionate about.

If it makes any difference, Im drinking some Vanuatu, Kava as we speek. Order it often. So as I have been typing this to you, @Noueky , mentioned. I thought the problem was more wide spread. I agree with that. I really had not notice Vanuatu was being singled out. I thought really it was more venders being called out. I never once made a connection with Vanuatu. But it seems that, as you have read, that you feel that the situation is falsie accusing Vanuatu. Well Maybe, like I said, I don't see it because I'm newer to it. Which very well may be the case. But this I know, All you have done on this forum, is put positive energy. So for you to post such a heart felt post, Makes me believe that this means a whole lot to you.

So I believe as a result of your post, our members will also be enlightened, as I am. And will also watch to try not to irritate an already fragile ecosystem, that Ecosystem being kava from Vanuatu, and how it gets to our shells. I hope in some way, you get some solace, In Knowing that You made us aware of this issue. That before your post many of us had no idea, the fragile state Vanuatus farmers are in. With that I give you my respect. Much love. Roaddog....

 

[TheKavaSociety]

I'd like to remind people that these tests are inconclusive. I see on different threads a little Vanuatu bashing. It's subtle, but it is apparent that Vanuatu is being picked on to a large degree. People posting here have the intelligence and the decency not to outright point the finger at who they blame for this 'spiking' but it's quite obvious if you read enough threads that Vanuatu is being blamed the most and it's getting a little too much in my opinion. I am trying my best to come on here more often and read more threads but I simply can't manage it right now. So the best I can do is post my thoughts on this below.

What I want to say is that the tests being conducted and their results are not 100% proven to be correct. The people carrying out the tests have all the best intentions but they must remember that there could be any number of reasons why the tests are showing these results, it could be the simplest of things yet overlooked and these reasons might not be Tudei spiking and in my opinion ARE NOT Tudei spiking. I am not going to say any more as there is ongoing efforts to solve the mystery of why good Kava is showing as spiked in these tests, I myself and others are doing all we can to work it out.

I would like to remind people that the farmers in Vanuatu had to be talked into planting Kava again because a lot of them stopped when the EU restrictions came into effect, Kava is a crop which as you know can only be harvested after a number of years. It is a lot more certain when you plant Yams etc that you will get a quick harvest and a definite income. A lot of these farmers had to be convinced (and in many cases it took a lot of convincing) to plant Kava again, it was not an easy task. These farmers, their families, the seamen who take the Kava from the small islands to the big ones (Efate and Espirito Santo mostly), the seamens families, the people who work at Kava processing on the main islands, their families and the people who work in Kava exports and their families ALL depend on Kava for their income, plus all the people locally who benefit from Kava income which trickles down. That means that without Kava they cannot afford to pay the teachers to educate their children, to pay for basic amenities, medical care and and anything else they most definitely need. Vanuatu is not an easy country to live in unless you are politically connected or are a foreigner who has flown in with massive capital and can live like a king and use and a lot of the time abuse the locals for labour to profit themselves. Most Ni-Vans struggle just to feed their families and keep a roof over their head. And by a roof over their head I mean the shacks which the majority of the people live in. These homes consist of a mud floor, some corrugated iron, chipboard and even cardboard (yes, people in paradise live in what are basically cardboard boxes). Imagine what happens when typhoon season strikes.

A lot of good, decent, honest people survive on the farming of Kava and it's export from Vanuatu and until we know FOR SURE that these test results are 100% correct then I would like to ask people to lay off the Vanuatu bashing. It has the potential of putting the livelihoods of thousands of people in jeopardy. Vanuatu is the undisputed root of Kava on this planet, it is where Kava originated from and it has a right to a fair trial and make no mistake this is a fucking trial from what I have seen on this forum. Some people are treating Vanuatu like it is guilty before it can even prove its innocence. Things happen slowly in Vanuatu and everyone must accept this and wait and see what responses we get regarding these tests. I don't believe that Tudei should be sold as Noble and I believe that people have a right to know what they are ingesting but for the love of Kava don't do what Germany and the EU did in 2002 by jumping the gun and making statements and declarations about Kava which HAVE NOT BEEN PROVEN. If you do then you are no better than the bureaucrats who damned it back in 2002 and have caused all these problems to date (in Europe in particular). You are trying to do the right thing and are trying to ensure that Kava is labelled properly so that the European situation does not happen elsewhere and this is admirable but hold back and think, think about the consequences of your actions because instead of being the upright saviours of Kava that you think you are being you may well be the next bunch of people who destroy the reputation of Kava because you didn't have the patience to wait and see what the actual truth is.

Thank you for taking the time to read this, please now give the people in Vanuatu the time to evaluate your tests and respond.

Hi @Global Kava Exports

Thank you very much for your thoughts, I really appreciate your concerns and I think there is a lot of merit in what you are saying.

At the same time, I think you are being a bit unfair. Many of the prominent members of this forum involved with the testing/science behind kava have repeatedly stated that the problems in other South Pacific nations are potentially far more serious than in Vanuatu! So, forgive me, but saying that there is some sort of Vanuatu-bashing going on is BS.
Everybody knows that Vanuatu is the motherland of kava and that lots of people there have invested a lot of time and effort in kava production/distribution. We all acknowledge that Vanuatu is actually THE ONLY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD with some sort of kava quality control legislation and an actual ban on tudei. When you study this forum carefully you will notice that some of the worst cases of potential deception/poor quality kava are related to either American companies (especially one that ships its products from Illinois and yet pretends to be a farm in Hawaii) or producers from such places as the Solomon Islands, Fiji or PNG. I know personally that the kava scene in Fiji is scary. Many resorts offer strong alcoholic-kava cocktails there and few people have even heard of the word "tudei", not to mention "chemotype" or "fkb". Nobody gives a damn.

Having said that, it is particularly worrying that we see cases of possible kava spiking in Vanuatu! Out of all the places in the world, Vanuatu should know better how important these matters are. The very word "tudei" comes from Vanuatu and they really do know their kava. With thousands of years of kava tradition, it is shocking to learn that some producers/distributors in Vanuatu add aerial parts of the plant, peelings or tudei kavas to their powders just to make a few more dollars. A small farmer doing it in PNG, Niue or Tuvalu wouldn't shock me - they might genuinely have little experience with kava and might think that either all is good or that their actions are largely harmless. If a producer/distributor in Vanuatu adds aerial parts of the plant to his shipment then he is simply evil even if his motivation is to lift his family out of poverty.

Yes, the test results presented here are not conclusive and are not conducted by any official government agency. Yet, they are nonetheless quite worrying and the science behind them seems legit. More importantly, the only reaction to these results from the vendors/producers (other than yourself or Chris from @Gourmet Hawaiian Kava ) has been skepticism or rather awkward denial. To me this seems to confirm that these tests have revealed some inconvenient truths.