methysticin in Fijian kava

[verticity]

Interesting. This is really a fascinating methystery.

 

[verticity]

Also, if I understand it correctly, it is proposed that Fiji got its kava via Tonga

View attachment 6985

It could be that high Methysticin is a "side effect" of the drive to lower DHM. In other words, the undesirability of DHM overrode the undesirability of M. The "lesser of two evils", as it were. I would think that would make sense chemically since M and DHM are closely related. Notice that in the Vanuatu lineage from wichmannii there is a steady drive to decrease DHM (5) and increase K (4), obviously. But also notice the trajectory of M (6): it increases at first, and then decreases somewhat. It's as if once they had gotten the DHM problem thoroughly beaten, they turned their attention to M, and managed to moderate it somewhat without also increasing DHM again. Maybe it's simply because Vanuatu has been in the business of cultivating kava longer than Fiji--or, no offense to the Fijians intended (ducks)--the ni-Vans were better at it, so they managed to get the level of M down a bit without also increasing the DHM. The ni-Vans were no doubt helped by the fact that they had the greatest genetic diversity to work with, so I really don't mean to disparage Fijians at all...

 

[TheKavaSociety]

It could be that high Methysticin is a "side effect" of the drive to lower DHM. In other words, the undesirability of DHM overrode the undesirability of M. The "lesser of two evils", as it were. I would think that would make sense chemically since M and DHM are closely related. Notice that in the Vanuatu lineage from wichmannii there is a steady drive to decrease DHM (5) and increase K (4), obviously. But also notice the trajectory of M (6): it increases at first, and then decreases somewhat. It's as if once they had gotten the DHM problem thoroughly beaten, they turned their attention to M, and managed to moderate it somewhat without also increasing DHM again. Maybe it's simply because Vanuatu has been in the business of cultivating kava longer than Fiji, so they managed to get the level of M down a bit without also increasing the DHM.

Ok. But the Tongans managed to keep M at bay. So it seems that Fijian growers kept high M mutations of Tongan kavas?

 

[verticity]

Ok. But the Tongans managed to keep M at bay. So it seems that Fijian growers kept high M mutations of Tongan kavas?

Is there a difference in the methysticin content of lateral roots vs. stump? Perhaps the Fijian custom of separating them into waka and lawena had something to do with it.

 

[Kava Time]

I think a factor which scholars may have not considered is how important aesthetic features of kava has been in fiji which was brought along by its demand. I can tell from the perspective of fijians of indian descent that they prefer cultivars which produce a light colored beverage and dont care about taste while itaukei (natives) prefer taste and effects of the kava over color. Since demand has been shaped more by fijians of indian descent this could have resulted in cultivars of high methysticin being chosen by farmers because it produced a lighter colored beverage and they knew that their produce would sell despite watever it tasted like. The high kavain (rare) varieties were kept for traditional ceremonies and most farmers appreciated drinking it more as recorded by scholars because they were itaukei (native) farmers so they gave preference on taste and effects. Im just assuming here. How the high methysticin kavas landed in fiji only god knows. Bt hey atleast it doesnt make u gag!
Personally i think trying to pinpoint individual kavalactones to its affects or effects is impossible. Its something like how percentage of 3 colors (red, yellow and blue) can determine the several color possibilities you can get. With kava you have 6 factors with endless possibilities

 

[verticity]

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Personally i think trying to pinpoint individual kavalactones to its affects or effects is impossible. Its something like how percentage of 3 colors (red, yellow and blue) can determine the several color possibilities you can get. With kava you have 6 factors with endless possibilities

True. It's like trying to navigate your 3-dimensional brain in a 6-dimensional hyperspace. (Actually more like 19 dimensional if you count all the kavalactones) Who knows, maybe there is a KL not in the "big 6" that is higher in Fijian kava that synergizes well with methysticin? After all, the farmers who did this didn't know there were "6" kavalactones (which there aren't); they just tried to maximize characteristics they liked.

 

[verticity]

I think a factor which scholars may have not considered is how important aesthetic features of kava has been in fiji which was brought along by its demand. I can tell from the perspective of fijians of indian descent that they prefer cultivars which produce a light colored beverage and dont care about taste while itaukei (natives) prefer taste and effects of the kava over color. Since demand has been shaped more by fijians of indian descent this could have resulted in cultivars of high methysticin being chosen by farmers because they knew that their produce would sell despite watever it tasted like because kava was drunk highly diluted. The high kavain (rare) varieties were kept for traditional ceremonies and most farmers appreciated drinking it more as recorded by scholars because they were itaukei (native) farmers so they gave preference on taste and effects. Im just assuming here. How the high methysticin kavas landed in fiji only god knows. Bt hey atleast it doesnt make u gag!
Personally i think trying to pinpoint individual kavalactones to its affects or effects is impossible. Its something like how percentage of 3 colors (red, yellow and blue) can determine the several color possibilities you can get. With kava you have 6 factors with endless possibilities

OK, wait a minute. If Fijians of Indian descent prefer light colored kava, why is waka a thing? It tends to be much darker than lawena. Do they actually consider lawena to be the "good stuff" because of it's color? Is waka just like the tripe and tendons? Or was that the case historically, if not today? This is really interesting.

 

[Kava Time]

True. It's like trying to navigate your 3-dimensional brain in a 6-dimensional hyperspace. (Actually more like 19 dimensional if you count all the kavalactones) Who knows, maybe there is a KL not in the "big 6" that is higher in Fijian kava that synergizes well with methysticin? After all, the farmers who did this didn't know there were "6" kavalactones (which there aren't); they just tried to maximize characteristics they liked.

Yep we islanders like to keep our kava drinking life simple. If it looks good (light color) its clean and a gods blessing, if it tastes sh*t, dilute it, if its too dark, it could be dirty, close your eyes and gulp it down, if it smells bad, block ur nose n gulp it down, if you end up in hospital, destroy that plant and spread the news of its evil!

 

[Kava Time]

OK, wait a minute. If Fijians of Indian descent prefer light colored kava, why is waka a thing? It tends to be much darker than lawena. Do they actually consider lawena to be the "good stuff" because of it's color? Is waka just like the tripe and tendons? Or was that the case historically, if not today? This is really interesting.

Waka from savusavu is really light colored like what im selling but only with some farmers. In actual waka isnt a thing. In reality light colored kava which is usually a combination of waka and lawena is a thing sold under the label of waka to fijians of indian descent

 

[verticity]

Waka from savusavu is really light colored like what im selling but only with some farmers. In actual waka isnt a thing. In reality light colored kava which is usually a combination of waka and lawena is a thing sold under the label of waka to fijians of indian descent

Interesting. so waka is considered good, but it is diluted with lawena to make it look lighter for local sale, seems to be what you are saying.

 

[verticity]

Maybe we foreigners are doing it wrong by demanding pure waka, whereas the local people actually prefer a blend?

 

[Kava Time]

Interesting. so waka is considered good, but it is diluted with lawena to make it look lighter for local sale, seems to be what you are saying.

Yeah sorry waka is still good because it adds potency to the kava but it wont sell due to it being darker. Its not only the case for locals, the same stuff is exported too wherever there is a domestic indo kava market. Thats why they sell kava for cheap because of the combination of waka and lawena and other cheap stuff. Their main aim is to have bit potency but the kava must be light colored for it to sell.
With this forum its a different case, waka is the thing because you need the most potent stuff you can find to get the best and long lasting effects and color doesnt matter. Problem is that pure waka comes comes with big price tag especially after the cyclones here

 

[verticity]

Yeah sorry waka is still good because it adds potency to the kava but it wont sell due to it being darker. Its not only the case for locals, the same stuff is exported too wherever there is a domestic indo kava market. Thats why they sell kava for cheap because of the combination of waka and lawena and other cheap stuff. Their main aim is to have bit potency but the kava must be light colored for it to sell.
With this forum its a different case, waka is the thing because you need the most potent stuff you can find to get the best and long lasting effects and color doesnt matter. Problem is that pure waka comes comes with big price tag especially after the cyclones here

Dude. We don't require pure waka! It's a myth! Personally I prefer the normal waka/lawena ratio of Vanuatu, Tongan and Hawaiian kavas. I don't care what color it is either. I just like a nice balanced kava that is sufficiently strong, but not too strong.

 

[Kava Time]

Dude. We don't require pure waka! It's a myth! Personally I prefer the normal waka/lawena ratio of Vanuatu, Tongan and Hawaiian kavas. I don't care what color it is either. I just like a nice balanced kava that is sufficiently strong, but not too strong.

Yeah vanuatu, Tongan and hawaiian (not sure on this one) have very overpowering roots. They need to be blended with root chips to give a good beverage. I know in fiji no one would dare to drink vanuatu or tongan roots on its own. Chips they would and its the most imported part from vanuatu as far as i hav observed. If fijian waka is blended with fijian lawena it will make a fairly weak kava. Pure fijian waka is more comparable to a blend of vanuatu or tongan roots and chips to give you a balanced effect. Im sure the savusavu u had gave you this balanced effect without being too overpowering. If you had a blended mix that potency would be decreased substantially.

 

[kasa_balavu]

I think a factor which scholars may have not considered is how important aesthetic features of kava has been in fiji which was brought along by its demand. I can tell from the perspective of fijians of indian descent that they prefer cultivars which produce a light colored beverage and dont care about taste while itaukei (natives) prefer taste and effects of the kava over color. Since demand has been shaped more by fijians of indian descent this could have resulted in cultivars of high methysticin being chosen by farmers because they knew that their produce would sell despite watever it tasted like because kava was drunk highly diluted.

I highly doubt that this is the case. In my experience, color of the beverage is defined by (1) how well the kava was cleaned and processed (laweana peeled? etc) and (2) the ratio of waka to lawena. All kava cultivars (or Fijian ones at least) are identical in appearance and color once they've been dried and powdered.

The consumers of kava (at least in the past 30yrs or so) are far removed from the farmers. A grog swiper in Nadi or Ba only has two things to go by... the ratio of waka to lawena, and the island on which the kava was grown.

The farmer in Kadavu or Taveuni or Savusavu aims to produce as much kava as he can for sale. The financial incentive compels him to grow the most hardy, resilient, vigorous kava plants. Taste or potency is of no concern to him because the middlemen who buy his kava don't care about those things.

Any cultivar selection for or against DHM or M occurred in the distant past before kava was commercialized, when farmers planted kava for their own needs and tastes.

 

[Kava Time]

I highly doubt that this is the case. In my experience, color of the beverage is defined by (1) how well the kava was cleaned and processed (laweana peeled? etc) and (2) the ratio of waka to lawena. All kava cultivars (or Fijian ones at least) are identical in appearance and color once they've been dried and powdered.

The consumers of kava (at least in the past 30yrs or so) are far removed from the farmers. A grog swiper in Nadi or Ba only has two things to go by... the ratio of waka to lawena, and the island on which the kava was grown.

The farmer in Kadavu or Taveuni or Savusavu aims to produce as much kava as he can for sale. The financial incentive compels him to grow the most hardy, resilient, vigorous kava plants. Taste or potency is of no concern to him because the middlemen who buy his kava don't care about those things.

Any cultivar selection for or against DHM or M occurred in the distant past before kava was commercialized, when farmers planted kava for their own needs and tastes.

I actually disagree. Wakas do differ by color. Below is a picture of the waka sampler packs il be offering soon.

I pressure washed and redried the wakas myself which i got from my farmers and they are 100% pure waka. If you notice closely, the savusavu is the lightest followed by taveuni, beqa and the darkest is kadavu in powder form. If i made this into beverages which i will for my website later on, the kadavu will make the darkest drink and savusavu will be the lightest. The actual beverage will help showcase the differnce in colors. And yes color also does make a difference with lawena and waka ratio and whether lawena is peeled or not. You will get the lightest colored beverage with peeled lawena which i will be offering also from taveuni for now. I will take a picture of that when there is daylight to show the difference with my lightest waka, the savusavu here.
@kasa_balavu dont you know that fijians of indian descent in fiji give preference to savusavu waka just for the color?

 

[verticity]

Yeah vanuatu, Tongan and hawaiian (not sure on this one) have very overpowering roots. They need to be blended with root chips to give a good beverage. I know in fiji no one would dare to drink vanuatu or tongan roots on its own. Chips they would and its the most imported part from vanuatu as far as i hav observed. If fijian waka is blended with fijian lawena it will make a fairly weak kava. Pure fijian waka is more comparable to a blend of vanuatu or tongan roots and chips to give you a balanced effect. Im sure the savusavu u had gave you this balanced effect without being too overpowering. If you had a blended mix that potency would be decreased substantially.

Your kava was excellent. But I'm speaking in general. For example sometimes I like to blend Squanch waka and lawena.
And don't be so self effacing about the potency of Fijian kava, mate. It can be plenty strong. For example: yours and Kalm with Kava's Loa waka. The Loa Waka is actually too strong for me usually. I have also had weak Fijian kava (for example, from "Best Fiji Kava") but I think a lot depends on finding the right farmers, I don't believe there is something intrinsically weaker about all Fijian kava.
I would be curious to see some actual data on the KL content of kava from various places.

 

[verticity]

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@kasa_balavu dont you know that fijians of indian descent in fiji give preference to savusavu waka just for the color?

I think @kasa_balavu is a Fijian of Indian descent.... Please correct me if I'm wrong kb.

 

[verticity]

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Any cultivar selection for or against DHM or M occurred in the distant past before kava was commercialized, when farmers planted kava for their own needs and tastes.

Well, selection never actually stops, although, as you point out, the motives driving the selection, and it's results, may have changed.

 

[kasa_balavu]

Well, selection never actually stops, although, as you point out, the motives driving the selection, and it's results, may have changed.

I agree. My point was that the selection pressures prior to commercialisation were more likely to be driven by taste, potency, and effects. Post-commercialisation, the selections pressures are purely for hardiness, drought tolerance, and root mass volume. Any selection for or against any given KL is purely incidental.
The exception to this is what Taki Mai is doing on Ovalau island. They commissioned the Institute of Applied Sciences (USP Lab where Fiji kava is tested) to determine for them which cultivars were most anxiolytic, and have been propagating and growing those cultivars.