The great Australian kava debate

[Deactivated Account]

It can't be ruled out, BUT, it seems far more likely that horrible injustices (losing land, children, rights and freedom), patronising and often abusive government interventions and the destruction of the local culture have had much more influence over substance use and abuse patterns than genes.

Early settlers left full flour sacks on roadsides laced with strychnine for the aboriginals to find as well as chasing them on horse back towards cliffs & shooting men,women & children. I do not have the words to continue writing.

 

[verticity]

But I get fed up with government, sometime I think welfare was created to addict poor people to government and get votes for the liberals.

Oh no you di-int!

 

[TheKavaSociety]

Yes, there is a deep sense of injustice but you absolutely cannot let them use that excuse. It's a crutch that gets them nowhere. The injustice part could be corrected if the government could find work for them. Hell, let them build some roads and bridges. Before you know it there kids are going to college. But I get fed up with government, sometime I think welfare was created to addict poor people to government and get votes for the liberals. But I'm still a compassionate conservative ... except when it comes to the Dutch.
(My apologies to the Dutch but I'm just quoting Austin Powers).

Reminds me of this little fragment:

If You Were King (The Dictator Syndrome)
Excerpted from chapter 5 of Why Government Doesn't Work, by Harry Browne

"Government grows also because well-meaning people like you and me believe it should do certain things that seem beyond controversy -- find a cure for cancer, stop air pollution, keep violence off television, hold back an aggressor in the Middle East -- something that everyone seems to agree should be done. Whatever the goal, it's easy to imagine that a single-minded government could achieve it.

I call this The Dictator Syndrome. You see suffering or danger, and in your imagination you see a government program eliminating it. But in the real world the program would operate as you expect only if you were an absolute dictator -- having at your disposal all of government's power to compel everyone to do things your way.

Just for a moment, think about something you wish the government would do and that nearly everyone would like to see happen -- provide swifter and surer punishment for criminals, teach children right and wrong, furnish health care to those who don't have it, bring peace to Bosnia, or whatever. Imagine a goal so important that it seems to justify using government's power to coerce.

And now, consider what will actually happen to your program.

To get it enacted you'll need political allies, since alone you have only limited influence. But other people will support your plan and work for it only if you modify it in dozens of ways that further their goals and satisfy their opinions.

Suppose you make the necessary compromises and amass enough support to pressure the politicians to vote for your revised program. Who will write the actual law? You? Of course not. It will be written by the same legislators and aides who created all the laws, programs, and problems you object to now. Each of them will compromise your program still further to satisfy his political supporters.

And if the law passes, who will administer it? You? Of course not. It will be implemented by bureaucrats --many of whom will use it to pursue goals quite different from what you had in mind. They won't care what your purpose was. It's their law now, and they'll use it to suit their objectives.

And, lastly, the new law probably will generate many disputes -- cases that must be settled in a courtroom. Who will decide those cases? You? Of course not. It will be the same judges who today rule according to their own beliefs, rather than by reference to the written law. A judge may even rule that your law means exactly the opposite of what you had intended.

By the time your program has run this gauntlet, it will be far bigger and far more expensive (in money and disrupted lives) than you had imagined. And it will have been twisted to satisfy many factions. In fact, your program may end up being the opposite of what you had intended.

In any case, you will have provided a new tool by which others can use government for their own ends."

--Browne, Harry, Why Government Doesn't Work, Chapter 5, "If You Were King (The Dictator Syndrome), St, Martin's Press, New York, NY, 1995, pp 20-21

 

[verticity]

Well, I can only say, it would be nice if people who believe government doesn't work would stay out of politics. It tends to become a self-fulfilling prophecy when they gain power.

 

[TheKavaSociety]

Well, I can only say, it would be nice if people who believe government doesn't work would stay out of politics. It tends to become a self-fulfilling prophecy when they gain power.

It's one thing to believe that government is never necessary and quite another to remain aware of the limits and unintended consequences of government actions. It seems that the Aussie kava policy was driven by noble intentions, but ended up making things worse. The new suggested policy is driven by the same nice intentions, but will likely make things tragically worse. It reminds me a bit of that Kisielewski's famous phrase: "Socialism heroically overcomes difficulties unknown in any other system". In the kava context: Aussie kava policy seeks to heroically overcome difficulties unknown in places without such a policy. Kava laced with cement? Come on! It really does take a lot of prohibition of a lot of different things for the market to start providing such products...

"Nothing so needs reforming as other people's habits." Mark Twain

 

[verticity]

It's one thing to believe that government is never necessary and quite another to remain aware of the limits and unintended consequences of government actions. It seems that the Aussie kava policy was driven by noble intentions, but ended up making things worse. The new suggested policy is driven by the same nice intentions, but will likely make things tragically worse. It reminds me a bit of that Kisielewski's famous phrase: "Socialism heroically overcomes difficulties unknown in any other system". In the kava context: Aussie kava policy seeks to heroically overcome difficulties unknown in places without such a policy. Kava laced with cement? Come on! It really does take a lot of prohibition of a lot of different things for the market to start providing such products...

"Nothing so needs reforming as other people's habits." Mark Twain

Yes government power can certainly be used in counterproductive ways. And of course, another important thing is freedom. Often governments do restrict freedom because of prejudice, ignorance, etc. I would suggest not that the Australian government should just ignore kava; it should do what we did in Colorado with M****: legalize it, tax it, inspect it to make sure it doesn't contain cement etc.

 

[Prince Philip]

As a Cargo Cultist, I might be a bit prejudiced in my worldview. Kava brings social cohesion. One almost-famous example is a rugby or soccer team where the coach said, "ok, we're all going to drink kava after practice" with the goal being as a muscle relaxant/recovery agent. But, he found that his team became more "teamy" as it facilitated group bonding.

There's a social-science paper on it, if any social-sciency person wants to read through it.

If the Aboriginal Australians were to drink kava, it could become a cultural identity marker, and a self-enhancing one at that. I'm willing to believe the kava ban is more "war on drugs," i.e. the state claiming exclusive control over states of consciousness and the means to reach those states, than it is about racism. Still, one only has to look at the successful kava culture of urban Vanuatu, where alcohol is taxed beyond the reach of most young, unemployed men, and kava is not.

 

[kavaface]

i knew i been shitting bricks! lol just kidding

 

[Deactivated Account]

If the Aboriginal Australians were to drink kava, it could become a cultural identity marker,

They have been drinking it for some 30 odd years. It's had very harmful effects just as alcohol,pot,paint,petrol & now ice.

You cannot liken them to other cultures. They lived here perfectly for some 60 000 years & we totally & utterly f%#€¥£d them in 150.

 

[TheKavaSociety]

They have been drinking it for some 30 odd years. It's had very harmful effects just as alcohol,pot,paint,petrol & now ice.

You cannot liken them to other cultures. They lived here perfectly for some 60 000 years & we totally & utterly f%#€¥£d them in 150.

@nemo do you really think that kava by itself has caused as much harm as booze, paint or petrol? Or has all the kava-related "damage" simply been closely linked to the prohibition and high prices?

 

[Deactivated Account]

@nemo do you really think that kava by itself has caused as much harm as booze, paint or petrol? Or has all the kava-related "damage" simply been closely linked to the prohibition and high prices?

It was just another drug in a list of many mate. I have had an interest in it for maybe 15 years & I can certainly say that it's caused huge problems. So has a lot of other things & I can sit here & debate the govt that booze has done much more damage and be correct, I'm not educated nor influential enough for that. But living here & understanding where aboriginals are at & also kava, I know it was & still can pose problems for their communities.

I mostly sit & listen to & read media put together by people whom have never driven an hour inland in Australia & frankly I'm a bit over it. I grew up & went to school with aboriginals.

I think Clint Eastwood got it right.

 

[verticity]

It was just another drug in a list of many mate. I have had an interest in it for maybe 15 years & I can certainly say that it's caused huge problems. So has a lot of other things & I can sit here & debate the govt that booze has done much more damage and be correct, I'm not educated nor influential enough for that. But living here & understanding where aboriginals are at & also kava, I know it was & still can pose problems for their communities.

I'm really curious actually, what specific problems have you seen in Aboriginal communities that are caused by kava?

 

[Deactivated Account]

I'm really curious actually, what specific problems have you seen in Aboriginal communities that are caused by kava?

I have no first hand experience (re kava but endless on stubstance abuse) & its 30 years since i was bush & kava really only recently appeared. Its similar in that i dont need to see first hand results of crack cocaine use in the bowels of Detroit to know what it does to families & neglected kids there. I read & watch any report on the matter here and know its a very real problem. Again so are a lot of other things, many of these communities in Arhnam Land are dry ie no substances allowed yet they all still get in as its a vast area & impossible to police. If a person wishes to destroy themselves with any substance its one thing however the concern is when the children of these people cannot break the cycle & are neglected. I dont like to write about what really goes on re children unfed,unschooled to just scratch the surface.. but any substance collapses aboriginal communities, every aussie knows this. We are responsible to the newer generations of these people to try & break the substance abuse cycle & educate. I dont have rose glasses on & fully understand prohibition is a complete farce & its the DNA we need to look at however there needs to be a first step with showing there is a different way of life for the kids. I know full well that the other substances do far far greater damage but if kava was legalised i know it would quickly top the list. Its hard for me to write & explain what ive observed over a life time & i imagine even harder to understand looking at it from a different country. No-one likes a drink of kava more than myself & i would love to just jump online & order some however i personally feel i owe the kids of Arhnam Land more than my wants. At the end of the day this is just an opinion like everyone elses but any substance rips these communities completely to hell, always has.

What i really struggle is how we came here. We walked in & killed any resistance, guns v spears. We killed their food supplies we burnt their forests, we jailed them, can you possibly start to imagine if a country was to invade the US ? We would have 30 new nuclear suns. We screwed these people & its my opinion that those of us here now are not responsible for past doings but are 100% responsible as to how we make the best of what happened. We did precisely what 1st world countries say they build defence for. I digress but jesus we need to take stock & make an effort to make change. Every humans soul is the same colour & has the same compassion. I digress again...i need some kava, sorry. I only have one ideology in life & that is to walk in anothers shoes as its only circumstance that separates us. Please im not having a chop at anyone in this thread but you really need to see a 60 000 year old deep culture shredded in just 200 short years ...it kills me watching it.

 

[verticity]

@nemo - I'm actually familiar with what you're talking about. The same thing happened to Native Americans here. Or I should say my ancestors did the same things to them. And sadly, many are still living in really shocking poverty on reservations, I have seen first hand. We don't have kava, but alcohol, meth, other substances are huge problems on the reservations. It has been speculated that Native Americans are more susceptible to alcoholism because they have historically been exposed to it only recently. (And supposedly Italians, etc, least since they have been exposed longest). I don't know if that's really true. But if we apply that logic to kava, the only people who should be drinking it are native Pacific Islanders- western white folks shouldn't touch it. But I really find it hard to believe that that makes any sense for kava. It's non-addictive, and, in my opinion, much less harmful than alcohol. So obviously I haven't been where you have, but nonetheless I can't help thinking you may be conflating cause and effect here. Are conditions crap for them because they drink kava, or are conditions just crap, and they seek out any available substance for relief.

 

[Deactivated Account]

@nemo Are conditions crap for them because they drink kava, or are conditions just crap, and they seek out any available substance for relief.

Pretty much. Mate a lot are what we call Long Grassers & they just live on the ground in dry river beds. Man its a freakin' mess, a horrifying mess. I can even start to go into it. I often wonder if its genetic or DNA or what it is but they are just so suseptable to substance abuse of any kind. I think once your history is killed off as what we did to them her they just succumb to any mental relief they can get. A lot of aussies still argue if they even had a culture but hell its massive & deep but mostly all gone now.

Sydney spent $7 million on fire works last new years eve yet we cant simply pick these people up & move them to a place with a chance of rehab & education. If they were white australians then everyone knows how different it would be. I probably should not be talking about it as im to angry with how we have been treating them. They have no chance as they are & we ignore it.

 

[TheKavaSociety]

From what I understand, there are two keyy problems linked to the the use of kava in the Aboriginal communities:
1) Purchasing kava consumes a large chunk of their modest incomes/savings.
2) Kava quality leaves a lot to be desired as, due to its high cost and the underground character of the trade, it is spiked with such things as flour, baking soda or even cement.

It is quite clear to be me that these things are made worse by restrictions on kava. If kava was fully legal (or even cultivated in the tropical parts of the country!) it could be not only much cheaper but also of much better quality.

 

[TheKavaSociety]

Some aboriginal voices:

"The Rirratjingu clan led the land rights movement, is famous for its high-calibre art and is today one of the most powerful clans in Arnhem Land. Bakamumu Marika, in his words the Rirratjingu “king”, described kava use very differently. “It’s bringing in the people, bringing families together and maintaining culture,” Mr Marika said. “I think it’s better than alcohol. People are more accommodating to being friendly, rather than being aggressive.”

Mambaka Marika said he had “changed my life” by giving up alcohol in favour of kava.

“Good strong leaders are made by kava,” he said. “You don’t find (alcohol) drinkers that are active in their leadership.”

Graham Maymuru, a senior figure in the Manggalili clan, said there were “great leaders here who drink kava but they go to work”. Alongside two church ministers, a clan leader, a ranger, a nurse and an employee of a firm that does contracting work for Rio Tinto, no one in the group said they did not have a job.

Bakamumu Marika and others would prefer to see kava reintroduced under licence to combat the black market trade. They see the high price of kava draining money from communities, and the fact it is often cut with things like flour, baking soda and even cement as the main problems.

“If you got rid of kava then you would see all the leaders go back where they came from — to the pub,” Mambaka Marika said." http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...kes-to-kava-drug/story-fn9hm1pm-1227131153942

It seems to me that far from being a problem in itself, kava can actually be a solution of many problems caused by the abuse of other substances.

 

[Deactivated Account]

Henry i fully appreciate your thoughts & you may well be correct however what is not being addressed is why there needs to be a substance of any kind to begin with. What causes a problem IS the actual problem to my thinking.

These people were never farmers of any description nor did they store food not needing to as they were purely nomadic with food all over the ground, a goanna or echidna could be just grabbed by hand. They inter mixed between mobs & we changed that & in that we took everything from them. White australia wanted them to become us & poured money in like no ones business.

This photo is the early 1900's & we still had them chained up as 100% hunter gatherers. We need to fix the root cause of why they are using any substance & thats probably not fixable without going back in time knowing what we do now.

 

[Deactivated Account]

They are one of the only races in the world that never had one single drug in their lives. Then we dropped in alcohol as we chained them & often made them wear suits so as they would be acceptable to us. Hell i'd be looking for anguish relief also.

 

[TheKavaSociety]

@nemo naturally you are absolutely right: it would be great if the key source of injustice/feeling of misery was removed. However, as this may not happen anytime soon and these communities might be likely to seek some mind-altering substances, there is nothing better and safer than kava. And in case,

They are one of the only races in the world that never had one single drug in their lives. Then we dropped in alcohol as we chained them & often made them wear suits so as they would be acceptable to us. Hell i'd be looking for anguish relief also.

I thought that they consumed that pituri weed before the European conquest of Australia? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duboisia