Withdrawals, can they happen?

[BourbonMac]

According to some posts on reddit it appears it's possible. I've always heard there are no withdrawals. In my experience of using it for months and stopping there wasn't, but what about for years? Has anyone else experienced any?

- someone here says they had withdrawal similar to heroin detox. That's a stretch, but what if they're serious?

 

[the_wilderness]

In terms of physical withdrawals, barely. i have a headache for a day or two, that's it. and i'm as psychologically dependent on kava as it gets.

 

[BourbonMac]

I wonder why that one guy said it was as bad as a heroin detox and some suggest coming off benzos is similar. I mean I guess not a lot of research has been done so nobody really knows 100% what withdrawals some may get but I'd gather the heroin guy might've been using extracts at really high doses or something.

As far as the OP I do believe him though, nothing seems ingenuine and that sub is all about recovering from addiction. This isn't the kind of sub where people try to make a good substance seem bad. They're even worse than benzo withdrawals he says. Maybe past hard drug use just makes it more likely for someone to experience withdrawals from kava, or something, because it seems like most people don't seem to experience any or as you say just get a headache. That's my only theory anyway.

 

[sɥɐʞɐs]

I'd need more details on exactly what & how he was consuming it. He mentioned 'bad extracts' might be responsible at the end of his post, that immediately makes me think he isn't drinking traditional aqueous extraction of kava. He might do both; legit kava and extracts. I don't know of any research on it, but I could see that it might be possible to have physical addiction to kavalactone extracts if he's dosing all day everyday and consuming amounts kavalactones that would be difficult to achieve with the traditional beverage and missing out on the nuances and interplay of the much less studied and understood chemicals in kava, apart from the 6 major kavalactones.

Also, kava often gets lumped in with Kr@T0m, ‘wellness shots’ like the Feel Free tonic like to advertise their product as if it's Kava but they’re also adding Kr@t0m, then people get addicted and have withdrawals and Kava is the familiar word on their mind, so they blame kava. Similarly, kava bars in the US will often have drinks with kr@t0m or a mix of kava and kr@ .... people get used to going there regularly, then knowingly or unknowingly drink Kr@t0m too often. The establishment usually has a kava culture vibe and often has Kava in the name and on the sign out front. They'll just associate it all as kava from the kava bar...with no distinction for the Kr@t0m.

Now, if this guy says he was only drinking medium grind kava, from a reputable source, that he mixed and strained at home....then it would be a weird case...and probably an extremely rare idiosyncracy in his genes. I can say from my anecdotal experience of drinking strong kava most nights for a very long time, if I stop suddenly, without taking any other kind of sedative/anxiolytic, I'll usually have weird sleep / intense dreams for awhile. That's about it.

 

[ThePiper]

Yeah it could be a kava K@ combination tincture or spiked with something else. I could see RLS worsening without kava and some rebound anxiety but that’s about it. Psychosomatic illness isn’t out of the question and this is Reddit so the hive mind may be spreading the hysteria to others

 

[BourbonMac]

I did mess with extract, eugh... not worth it. He did mention those. You want to speedrun dermopathy, that's how you do it. I'll never forget the awful taste either. I wonder if some of them did perma fuck up their gaba receptors somehow and that's why some might've had WDs

 

[ThePiper]

I’m no neuroscience expert but afaik kava is not a gaba agonist at all, although it does “influence” the receptor. Many herbs have some influence/modulation on gaba, like chamomile, lavender, magnolia, skullcap, and lemonbalm. None of these have any considerations for an addiction potential. I would be very interested to see how these individuals react to these substances. If these people have real brain damage prior, maybe they have unpredictable reactions.

my main skepticism about the post is the unquestionably hyperbolic comparisons. Benzodiazepine withdrawal, as many here can tell you, can be a truly horrific experience, occasionally resulting in death. Without tapering or medical supervision it is almost an impossible task.Symptoms include panic attacks, wrenching, heart palpitations, seizures, psychosis, hallucinations, and delusions.

 

[ThePiper]

I stand corrected. Reddit is a strange place

 

[BourbonMac]

This doesn't seem impossible, but still, that's an odd habit let alone to get withdrawal from. I have chamomile capsules and if I take a few I can actually get pretty messed up. This guy must have been putting stupid amounts of it when he made his tea

 

[Pzk]

I tend to have a "soft" physical withdrawal as well. At least a huge psychological withdrawal as well. But I was 2x benzo addicted in life. Perhaps that makes a difference.

Also I am reacting a bit strange to kava since the beginning. Sometimes it seems to "destroy" my nerves or attack them. Hard to describe. Sometimes I have some kind of "nerve damage" depending on "cultivar", amount I took and how long I took. Sometimes it was almost frightening what it does to my body sometimes.

But the hardest meanwhile is to really stay away from kava. But my stomach, bowel and system in total can't take it anymore.

I am still not able to stay away for lets say "a month" to see how things change then.

But actually I am not really able to move things without kava, wake up, do breakfast and I am immediately without any energy and could lay down (could also be called depression). Have a very hard time to find energy and to find some good mood to move things and get my life right, or even live my life.

But I have to say, I am a k@ user since years and I am slowly withdrawing at the same time. But no matter, I realize the influence of kava a lot at my place.

My autoimmune issues get worse big time due to kava, which shows, me personally (leaky gut and so on), is reacting very bad.

Even though it is said Kava is anti-inflammatory, and anti parasitic (and I am every sure I have a heavy metal intoxication and parasitic problem on top). Could also be a herxheimer. With some cultivars, like "melo melo" my stiff muscles relax a bit, so that my stiff back, my vertebras can find some space and movement so it "clicks" again and again and again in my back, which it normally doesn't (stiff back and neck, zero movement possible). Wich is actually a good sign, but somehow my body goes nuts with and after kava.


Too many construction zones. To me it seems a bit of physical withdrawal as well.

I mean look, even if you would call it only "mental withdrawal" - where does it come from? Receptors that are used to something, aren't receptors also physical? So when you get depressed without a "Medicine" or without kava, of course actually this also is physical dependence, even though one might think just "muscle cramps" are an physical withdrawal.

 

[Orz[EST]]

Kava is not antidepressant. Reduces irritableness but increases lazyness. Mixed bag.

 

[Orz[EST]]

You can elaborate if there is any difference between heavy and heady kava. Maybe someone can elaborate.

Heady kava may be good for maintaining flow if there is any but if there is not, then it does nothing. Heady kava in the morning is better for sleep than heavy kava in the evening. Morning heady kava is pretty good in my book. Heavy kava can calm down and is more medical, heady is nicer mirror image of coffee and actually fits well small coffee. Enjoyable.

The worst for sleep is afternoon coffee + any kava in my experience.

 

[Pzk]

Kava is not antidepressant. Reduces irritableness but increases lazyness. Mixed bag.

Very interesting, because to me kava is very antidepressive. Actually the best I ever had in life. But the downsides are huge (the come down on the one side and the "hardiness" on my body). I never found something better than kava, that fits to so many "use methods".

Depends on cultivar of course!

Irritableness becomes less? Mmmmmm honestly my sex drive goes up in a huge way! It is my favorite aphrodisiac really... almost not to bear sometimes when you have no one around.

 

[The Kap'n]

View attachment 13360
I stand corrected. Reddit is a strange place

Untangling some of the posts is nearly impossible. We get people who think they're drinking kava who are drinking everything under the sun BUT kava. Reddit is the tip of the internet's tongue in regards to what they may be thinking. As such it's usually a nightmare.

 

[Kaavaaa]

lets not forget people who think that tablespoons are teaspoons and vice versa

 

[Koa_Kava_]

I'd need more details on exactly what & how he was consuming it. He mentioned 'bad extracts' might be responsible at the end of his post, that immediately makes me think he isn't drinking traditional aqueous extraction of kava. He might do both; legit kava and extracts. I don't know of any research on it, but I could see that it might be possible to have physical addiction to kavalactone extracts if he's dosing all day everyday and consuming amounts kavalactones that would be difficult to achieve with the traditional beverage and missing out on the nuances and interplay of the much less studied and understood chemicals in kava, apart from the 6 major kavalactones.

Also, kava often gets lumped in with Kr@T0m, ‘wellness shots’ like the Feel Free tonic like to advertise their product as if it's Kava but they’re also adding Kr@t0m, then people get addicted and have withdrawals and Kava is the familiar word on their mind, so they blame kava. Similarly, kava bars in the US will often have drinks with kr@t0m or a mix of kava and kr@ .... people get used to going there regularly, then knowingly or unknowingly drink Kr@t0m too often. The establishment usually has a kava culture vibe and often has Kava in the name and on the sign out front. They'll just associate it all as kava from the kava bar...with no distinction for the Kr@t0m.

Now, if this guy says he was only drinking medium grind kava, from a reputable source, that he mixed and strained at home....then it would be a weird case...and probably an extremely rare idiosyncracy in his genes. I can say from my anecdotal experience of drinking strong kava most nights for a very long time, if I stop suddenly, without taking any other kind of sedative/anxiolytic, I'll usually have weird sleep / intense dreams for awhile. That's about it.

Totally agree. We really need to know what he was consuming, and how it was prepared.

 

[BourbonMac]

Well, I've learned something.
Kava withdrawal is definitely real.

I didn't have any last night and I woke up to horrible, HORRIBLE restless legs that I am still experiencing. I take no other medication. I used to take Diazepam and stopped that forever ago, but even that didn't give me withdrawal after like 5 or so days. So unless the fact that I once was on a benzo is why, it definitely has withdrawals. There's no questioning it. I took K@ in the past, 2017-2018, and the restless legs I've had are about on par with that.

To be fair, I was consuming stupid amounts like 20g of micronized most nights, 60g medium grind, 40g micronized another night. I was getting immensely fucked up off this stuff. Last year I took kava for months but my micronized didn't typically go beyond 15g, and then I substituted for medium grind where on average I'd drink 40g of.

Then about 2 months in dermopathy happened and I was forced to quit drinking it. I've been drinking it the same length of time, about 2 months, but I used extract for a period last year, which was intended to be dosed at like, 0.3g. I was downing 5 grams of that stuff sometimes, or some medium grind and then extract, and only the first batch I got did anything. The 2nd did nothing, like literally was completely bunk and I just threw it all away, probably got dermopathy a lot faster because of it.

You'd think with me taking excess extract like that I would've had withdrawals then, but no. I think the extract all in all was only like 2x the strength of micronized, so despite the warnings of its potency, a dose like 0.3g was way too small given I often felt nothing until it was 5g whereas in the same period 10g of micronized was often enough.

But yeah, they're real alright, they're real. Maybe the fact that I mostly take micronized has something to do with it. I mean 40g of micronized is equal to like 80g of medium grind and I don't think people are typically consuming that much. That was last week I think, I've never been more fucked up off any intoxicant in my entire life, so that should stand to say, yeah, it's possible. I have a strange feeling medium grind in general is less likely because you don't get all the kavalactones that you do in micronized and most people take medium grind, certainly everyone in Fiji would.

 

[Pzk]

thx @BourbonMac for your honesty!

But restless legs, wow, that's surprising to hear. I don't use micronized anymore because my body just couldn't take it.

I question that 40gr of micronized are equal to 80gr of traditional grind, if you use the traditional grind more often and especially if you use hot water for the last "wash". I guess at least 90% of kavalactones you have also then.

But perhaps there are some ingredients in the root which just don't get washed out by water?!

On the other hand, I guess it is a very personal story.

Even though I also had the feeling of withdrawals, but they differ a bit (or even a lot) depending on cultivar and heavy/heady.

To me it is more the heavy depression after consuming kava and it needs a couple of days until I am through it.

Also a little bit of physical dependence seems to be there at my place, but in no way comparable to restless legs.

But of course I believe your story!

Perhaps just try to use traditional grind, if you use any at all, and use it more often or freeze the rest after 2x wash, and use it once more with hot water, to get all out of it. Also saves you some money!


PS: Excuse if my English is a bit off

 

[The Kap'n]

Sorry bro, but I think that's y

Well, I've learned something.
Kava withdrawal is definitely real.

I didn't have any last night and I woke up to horrible, HORRIBLE restless legs that I am still experiencing. I take no other medication. I used to take Diazepam and stopped that forever ago, but even that didn't give me withdrawal after like 5 or so days. So unless the fact that I once was on a benzo is why, it definitely has withdrawals. There's no questioning it. I took K@ in the past, 2017-2018, and the restless legs I've had are about on par with that.

To be fair, I was consuming stupid amounts like 20g of micronized most nights, 60g medium grind, 40g micronized another night. I was getting immensely fucked up off this stuff. Last year I took kava for months but my micronized didn't typically go beyond 15g, and then I substituted for medium grind where on average I'd drink 40g of.

Then about 2 months in dermopathy happened and I was forced to quit drinking it. I've been drinking it the same length of time, about 2 months, but I used extract for a period last year, which was intended to be dosed at like, 0.3g. I was downing 5 grams of that stuff sometimes, or some medium grind and then extract, and only the first batch I got did anything. The 2nd did nothing, like literally was completely bunk and I just threw it all away, probably got dermopathy a lot faster because of it.

You'd think with me taking excess extract like that I would've had withdrawals then, but no. I think the extract all in all was only like 2x the strength of micronized, so despite the warnings of its potency, a dose like 0.3g was way too small given I often felt nothing until it was 5g whereas in the same period 10g of micronized was often enough.

But yeah, they're real alright, they're real. Maybe the fact that I mostly take micronized has something to do with it. I mean 40g of micronized is equal to like 80g of medium grind and I don't think people are typically consuming that much. That was last week I think, I've never been more fucked up off any intoxicant in my entire life, so that should stand to say, yeah, it's possible. I have a strange feeling medium grind in general is less likely because you don't get all the kavalactones that you do in micronized and most people take medium grind, certainly everyone in Fiji would.

Try magnesium.

 

[Pzk]

Restless legs because of missing magnesium? Really? I am not into RLS, I don't know but sounds a bit unrealistic that this is the only reason for it...