Kava Culture The Kava Flow - Kava vs K@ - Should K@ Be Sold in Kava Bars?

[TheKavaFlow]

Hello again, friendly KavaForum friends!

In light of recent events surrounding K@, kava, and the various bars that call themselves "Kava Bars", I wanted to put together a comprehensive video to make it a bit easier to understand why so many of us are against having K@ served in kava bars.

YouTube Video: Podcast: http://www.kavaflow.net/e/kava-vs-K@-should-K@-be-sold-in-kava-bars/

Contact the kava bars below and show your support. They're two great kava bars that don't serve K@, and we want them to know we appreciate them!

MeloMelo Kava Bar
1701 University Ave, Berkeley, CA 94703
(510) 900-9316

Square Rut Kava Bar
1601 Barton Springs Rd, Austin, TX 78704
(512) 452-5282

Cheers,
Morgan

 

[The Kap'n]

Hello again, friendly KavaForum friends!

In light of recent events surrounding K@, kava, and the various bars that call themselves "Kava Bars", I wanted to put together a comprehensive video to make it a bit easier to understand why so many of us are against having K@ served in kava bars.

YouTube Video: Podcast: http://www.kavaflow.net/e/kava-vs-K@-should-K@-be-sold-in-kava-bars/

Contact the kava bars below and show your support. They're two great kava bars that don't serve K@, and we want them to know we appreciate them!

MeloMelo Kava Bar
1701 University Ave, Berkeley, CA 94703
(510) 900-9316

Square Rut Kava Bar
1601 Barton Springs Rd, Austin, TX 78704
(512) 452-5282

Cheers,
Morgan

You post early. I keep missing them before I leave for work, but it definitely gives me something to look forward to for after. I'm impressed with these two kava bars who seem to make it without selling krat. I'm sure it's a mixture of understanding your demographic and offering creative products to fill revenue gaps, but I'd love to hear how they do it.

 

[Palmetto]

I think the problem for kava bars is that it can't be sold alongside other things as easily as food + alcohol. It also doesn't pair well with gym workouts or vigorous leisure activites. The market demand is not high enough in most places to survive on only selling kava, because the culture is not accustomed to it. I thin it would take figuring out a good partner thing to sell to make it as a kava bar outside of a decent sized city. Or maybe advertise it to people trying to overcome dependency.

 

[verticity]

I didn't know about Square Rut. That's awesome, and kudos to them.

 

[verticity]

As you know I am agreement with you that K@ should not be sold in kava bars. I pretty much agree with 99% of what you say here... However, I think maybe you are exaggerating the dangers of K@ a little. It is true that it is an opioid, meaning it is an opiate receptor agonist (a full agonist as a matter of fact). But, there is some evidence that (for reasons I don't really understand) it has less addictive potential than other drugs in that category, and that the withdrawals are often less severe. It is true that people get addicted to it, and some people do have withdrawal symptoms. But the appeal of it--and the reason I believe it should be legal, whereas harder things should not--is that it seems to be milder and less harmful than stronger drugs on that continuum. At one point you say an overdose of K@ could possibly be fatal, but I'm not sure if that is true. Opiates like heroin are notorious for overdose deaths, of course, but as far as I know a K@ overdose probably won't kill anyone. A krat overdose will cause very unpleasant symptoms such as nausea, vomiting, etc. but is very unlikely to be fatal. Of course your point was the danger that people will confuse kava with K@ and take too high a dose: and I'm 100% with you on the need to educate people about that. (I'm reminded of a certain scene in the movie Pulp Fiction where a character confuses one substance for another...)

 

[TheKavaFlow]

As you know I am agreement with you that K@ should not be sold in kava bars. I pretty much agree with 99% of what you say here... However, I think maybe you are exaggerating the dangers of K@ a little. It is true that it is an opioid, meaning it is an opiate receptor agonist (a full agonist as a matter of fact). But, there is some evidence that (for reasons I don't really understand) it has less addictive potential than other drugs in that category, and that the withdrawals are often less severe. It is true that people get addicted to it, and some people do have withdrawal symptoms. But the appeal of it--and the reason I believe it should be legal, whereas harder things should not--is that it seems to be milder and less harmful than stronger drugs on that continuum. At one point you say an overdose of K@ could possibly be fatal, but I'm not sure if that is true. Opiates like heroin are notorious for overdose deaths, of course, but as far as I know a K@ overdose probably won't kill anyone. A krat overdose will cause very unpleasant symptoms such as nausea, vomiting, etc. but is very unlikely to be fatal. Of course your point was the danger that people will confuse kava with K@ and take too high a dose: and I'm 100% with you on the need to educate people about that. (I'm reminded of a certain scene in the movie Pulp Fiction where a character confuses one substance for another...)

I just looked it up, and you're right. I was speculating about ODing (I think I made that clear, but I don't have time to look at the video for a few more hours). I'll cut that part out; we don't need misinformation floating around, speculative or not. Thanks for the feedback!

 

[TheKavaFlow]

You post early. I keep missing them before I leave for work, but it definitely gives me something to look forward to for after. I'm impressed with these two kava bars who seem to make it without selling krat. I'm sure it's a mixture of understanding your demographic and offering creative products to fill revenue gaps, but I'd love to hear how they do it.

Oh, you'll be hearing how they do it. Stay tuned.

 

[sɥɐʞɐs]

Mystic Water in Huntington Beach doesn't sell K@, one reviewer even said this "The owner was misinformed about K@ and didn't sell it. He was very hostile against it which I felt was a real shame. However his kava was superb."

There are other Mystic Waters, not sure if they all follow the same rules. There's a handful of kava bars in Hawai'i, most of which probably only serve kava. Kava Bar in San Bruno seems to be kava only, as far as I know. A couple people on the forum have been to a kava bar in San Diego that was kava only.

The kava + K@ business model seems to be an infection that originated in Florida and is concentrated in Florida, but has spread north to some spots in the north east and a few places elsewhere. The Florida scene is a bunch of copy cat kava bars, there was an original bar that caught on, so more and more people started up kava bars there. Then one place starts selling K@, it makes profits, it starts gaining popularity, people begin expecting it, the businesses all copy cat again. it spreads etc...

The California scene in particular would be wise to make an effort to be kava-only, because California has a habit of banning substances and things, at the state level before, that the other states don't ban, or don't ban until years later.
(As far as I'm personally aware, Root of Happiness is the only bar that will sell kr@tom if you ask, in California.)

I haven't listened to the podcast yet, in case I'm repeating some stuff that was covered.

 

[TheKavaFlow]

Mystic Water in Huntington Beach doesn't sell K@, one reviewer even said this "The owner was misinformed about K@ and didn't sell it. He was very hostile against it which I felt was a real shame. However his kava was superb."

There are other Mystic Waters, not sure if they all follow the same rules. There's a handful of kava bars in Hawai'i, most of which probably only serve kava. Kava Bar in San Bruno seems to be kava only, as far as I know. A couple people on the forum have been to a kava bar in San Diego that was kava only.

The kava + K@ business model seems to be an infection that originated in Florida and is concentrated in Florida, but has spread north to some spots in the north east and a few places elsewhere. The Florida scene is a bunch of copy cat kava bars, there was an original bar that caught on, so more and more people started doing it there. Then one place starts selling K@, it makes profits, it starts gaining popularity, people begin expecting it, the businesses all copy cat again etc...

The California scene in particular would be wise to make an effort to be kava-only, because California has a habit of banning substances and things, at the state level before, that the other states don't ban, or don't ban until years later.

I haven't listened to the podcast yet, in case I'm repeating some stuff that was covered.

Thanks for the info. I'm putting together a list of kava bars that don't serve K@, and I wasn't aware of Mystic Waters. I'll give them a call and add them to the list.

 

[sɥɐʞɐs]

Thanks for the info. I'm putting together a list of kava bars that don't serve K@, and I wasn't aware of Mystic Waters. I'll give them a call and add them to the list.

Sounds good, you can also check in with Kava Lounge SF Phone number(415) 834-5174
They might be kava-only too.

 

[Zaphod]

I can't confirm (since I have not been there) but from what I have heard 2nd hand this place does not serve the other K:
http://sacredrootkava.com/
https://www.yelp.com/biz/sacred-root-kava-lounge-and-tea-bar-ithaca-3
A quick call might confirm this...unless they do it under the table, but I have not heard of that happening. They do have a nice supply of Ithaca College kids who are more likely to be into Kava than the average kid...

 

[Edward]

As you know I am agreement with you that K@ should not be sold in kava bars. I pretty much agree with 99% of what you say here... However, I think maybe you are exaggerating the dangers of K@ a little. It is true that it is an opioid, meaning it is an opiate receptor agonist (a full agonist as a matter of fact). But, there is some evidence that (for reasons I don't really understand) it has less addictive potential than other drugs in that category, and that the withdrawals are often less severe. It is true that people get addicted to it, and some people do have withdrawal symptoms. But the appeal of it--and the reason I believe it should be legal, whereas harder things should not--is that it seems to be milder and less harmful than stronger drugs on that continuum. At one point you say an overdose of K@ could possibly be fatal, but I'm not sure if that is true. Opiates like heroin are notorious for overdose deaths, of course, but as far as I know a K@ overdose probably won't kill anyone. A krat overdose will cause very unpleasant symptoms such as nausea, vomiting, etc. but is very unlikely to be fatal. Of course your point was the danger that people will confuse kava with K@ and take too high a dose: and I'm 100% with you on the need to educate people about that. (I'm reminded of a certain scene in the movie Pulp Fiction where a character confuses one substance for another...)

Good info but one thing that comes to my mind is do you think that K@ could be a gateway drug to harder things? You start using an opioid like K@ but soon it's not enough and you start considering trying something else that will get the job done better? I have to be honest and say I know nothing about these things which is why I'm putting the question here.

 

[Edward]

@TheKavaFlow very good to have someone doing something like this. I haven't come across any of your posts in the last few months you've been a member so surprised you've got so many posts already. Anyway, I'm looking forward to more.

 

[Groggy]

@TheKavaFlow very good to have someone doing something like this. I haven't come across any of your posts in the last few months you've been a member so surprised you've got so many posts already. Anyway, I'm looking forward to more.

@TheKavaFlow was/is Morgan from Cactus kava I thought the same thing when I first saw his new avatar.

 

[Dr.Krunk]

As far as I'm concerned any Kava bar that says they can't survive without K@ is full of bs. You're average citizen outside the islands doesn't know what kava or K@ is. They were either introduced to it by an individual/local establishment, or they learned of it online most likely as a "legal high." The problem is these places are a business with the sole purpose of making money. You can offer a product that is not addictive and enjoyable or a product that will become addictive ensuring consistent business from the same individuals. I have yet to visit a Kava bar/nakamal but the environment itself from what I've seen through videos is enough in itself to keep me coming back. Too bad there's no such place anywhere remotely near me...

 

[Dr.Krunk]

I think most here agree on the fact that K@ should not be sold next to Kava. Like many I don't agree with K@ necessarily being deemed illegal, but riding on Kava's good name does not work. You are gonna have people drinking both, feel bad and might not even know which they consumed. So Kava is ultimately guilty by association. Let too many stories get out and who knows what happens.

 

[verticity]

@TheKavaFlow was/is Morgan from Cactus kava I thought the same thing when I first saw his new avatar.

And before he was CactusKava he was @Runding I think.

Good info but one thing that comes to my mind is do you think that K@ could be a gateway drug to harder things? You start using an opioid like K@ but soon it's not enough and you start considering trying something else that will get the job done better? I have to be honest and say I know nothing about these things which is why I'm putting the question here.

I guess that is theoretically possible, but I doubt it happens very often. It seems that most K@ users are people who already have experience with and/or are trying to recover from harder stuff. But the presence of krat in kava bars actually is concerning for that reason if you think about it: There are probably a lot of people who go to them who have never tried either kava or krat before, and probably many of them have never used opioids either. They are just curious, seeking something novel and "exotic". Basically the same kind of impulse that makes me curious to try Ghanaian/West African food, after seeing the yummy looking pictures of it @Kavasseur posted on Facebook. So suppose these naive novelty-seekers show up at a kava bar expecting a perfectly safe experience--it's just roots and herbs after all--and try K@ for the first time. Maybe they like it, do some research on it, and figure out that they like opioids. Probably the vast majority of people would not make the leap to harder opioids, being familiar with the horror stories. But perhaps some might figure, "well this K@ stuff seemed pretty mild and harmless, maybe all this rhetoric about the danger of opioids is just 'drug war' propaganda, maybe I'll just try some of these pills also..." Now, I have no idea if that has ever really happened, but it is possible to write a story like the preceding that doesn't sound totally crazy.

 

[verticity]

Your chart lists K@ as "FDA Labels as New Dietary Supplement" - this is incorrect. K@ is not and has never been a dietary supplement as defined by the FDA, nor is there any likelihood it will ever become one. When represented by a vendor for human consumption, K@ would be seen by the FDA as a "dietary ingredient". This term - "dietary ingredient" - does not denote approval in any manner, it is merely used to define ANY substance purported for human consumption. If, for instance, I wanted to sell atomic space dust from Zorkon for human consumption, I would have to submit a "New Dietary Ingredient Notification" to the FDA and establish the safety of that product to their satisfaction. Were I unable to do this and the submission were rejected, any product containing Zorkonian Atomic Space Dust would be considered by the FDA to be adulterated and subject to seizure.

This process has been attempted with K@. On September 8, 2016, INI Botanicals submitted an NDIN for their product "Mitrasafe", which they described as "a dietary supplement made from greater than 99% purity extract of Mitragynine from the dried leaves of Mitragyna speciosa". The FDA rejected this submission:

"...the information in your submission does not provide an adequate basis to conclude that ''Mitrasafe" will reasonably be expected to be safe. Therefore, your product may be adulterated under 21 U.S.C. § 342(f)(l)(B) as a dietary supplement that contains a new dietary ingredient for which there is inadequate information to provide reasonable assurance that such ingredient does not present a significant or unreasonable risk of illness or injury."

This was, to my knowledge, the singular attempt to establish K@ as a dietary supplement, and it failed. K@ is NOT a dietary supplement, FDA Import Alert 54-15 is still active, and K@ is not legal to sell for human consumption under any circumstances. Its legal status is no different than that of the synthetic (and now illegal) drugs previously offered by many of its current supporters.

Sources:
"K@ Rejected by FDA as New Dietary Ingredient"
Letter from FDA CFSAN to INI Botanicals regarding NDI 944 - Mitrasafe

I think the correct phrase would be something like "Non-FDA Approved Dietary Ingredient"