What is the kavalactone content of prepared kava + discussion on prep methods

[verticity]

So, going back to Gautz, Li & Bittenbender's CTAHR method in a little more detail, because they actually did what I suggested in the above post (prepare kava and measure KL content) here is what they say:

"Least Kl removed 52 mg – R, big piece, frozen, 20C, 1:1 water,
1 extract cycle for 120 sec of hand kneading.
Most Kl removed 542 mg – R, small piece, frozen, 45C water,
1:3 water, 3 maceration cycles, 120 sec maceration."

I think those milligram numbers refer to milligrams of kavalactones in the prepared beverage per total grams of KLs in the dried root.
R means rhizome (waka, lateral roots).

So, what I think they are saying is:
- If you knead large chunks of waka in a very small amount of room temperature water for 2 minutes, you can extract 52/1000 mg = 5% of the KLs.
- If you do small pieces in the blender with more pretty hot water for a total of 2 minutes, you can extract 542/1000 mg = 54% KLs extracted.
- If you do something in between, such as knead in hot water or use cold water in the blender, the extraction efficiency will be larger than 5% but smaller than 54%.

Also, later they say:

"Average kl removed mg/g in kava
393 mg/g Kl in stump
402 mg/g Kl in root "

which would mean 39-40% efficiency. But I'm not sure if those numbers are just the average of all the variables they tried, or some kind of optimal conditions.

Now, I'm actually not clear from looking at the PDF, but it appears that the longest time they used was 2 minutes, for both blending and hand kneading, because they wanted to use the same amount of time for both methods. It's not clear if the initial comment about "hand prepared kava beverage removes about 15%..." refers to that 2 minute time, or a more typical kneading time of 10-15 minutes, or what temperature of water that refers to. If it refers to a 2 minute time, it would seem that this experiment is not really fair to hand kneading, and that if you used longer kneading times, or maybe combined kneading for longer times with more than one wash in hotter water, you could increase the efficiency of extraction with kneading.

 

[kasa_balavu]

We really need someone to go further than the Bittenbender study and play around with the variables a lot more (eg. 10min kneading, 5min blending, 5min aluball, varying the temperature of the water, and so on).

Among us, only @verticity and @Deleted User have the equipment

Maybe we can get a vendor to sponsor such a study? Perhaps a "KWK Deleted User method" or the "BKH verticity method" will supplant the Bittenbender method

 

[verticity]

We really need someone to go further than the Bittenbender study and play around with the variables a lot more (eg. 10min kneading, 5min blending, 5min aluball, varying the temperature of the water, and so on).

Among us, only @verticity and @Deleted User have the equipment

Maybe we can get a vendor to sponsor such a study? Perhaps a "KWK Deleted User method" or the "BKH verticity method" will supplant the Bittenbender method

Sadly, I don't have the equipment to measure KL% (but @Deleted User does). You need an HPLC (or GC or HPTLC) for that.

 

[sɥɐʞɐs]

Sadly, I don't have the equipment to measure KL% (but @Deleted User does). You need an HPLC for that.

Crowd sourced HPLC funding for verticity!? Might take a while with our little group, but better late than never, eh ?

 

[Kava Time]

Is it possible to guesstimate an amount of kavalactones in a one pound bag of medium grind kava? Realizing that many many variables come into play here (strength of kneading, type of kava, washes, etc.), could you give a generic ballpark figure for kavalactone content in say...a pound of Mahakea?

I published a blog post yesterday about kava dosage if you are keen to read through. Has some formulas to calculate how many kavalactones you use per session and how to maximize the kava you have. its HERE

Here's my take on some of the discussions here.

I strongly believe micro is stronger than medium grind kava. I don't understand why people seem to think it isnt. If you really want to do a proper comparison of strength, you need to use the same weight of medium grind as you would of micronized kava. With us, only two teaspoon is needed and you would have had enough of the kava compared to maybe 7 - 8 teaspoon of medium grind which would be needed to reach the same point (of the same kava).

As for how efficient our extraction method is with medium grind. Well maybe a lot of you would disagree, but i think the finding by By Gautz, Li, and Bittenbender has some validity towards it. Almost everyone uses a very fine strainer to filter out medium grind kava (usually 80 - 100 microns). I think the aluball also is about 80 microns. Basically you are just filtering the medium grind kava of course fibers. Judging by most kava grinds, you get between 10 - 15% of those fine particles through into the liquid. Thats where 100% of your kavalactones is coming from when drinking. The rest remains in the makas.

Of course, there is a difference in tradition prep where you knead the heck out of the kava. Thats helps with extraction, but not as much. Why? Well we know that kavalactones are basically oily and they dont dissolve in water. You cant simply wash off kavalactones into water. Its as difficult as trying to wash off oil or grease from any rough surface using water. First problem is that it requires a lot of pressure to extract kavalactones out of the kava particles. Second is that if you manage to extract some out, they stick back onto the rough surfaces of the makas and also the strainer you use because the kavalactones are quite viscous (look at CO2 kava extracts). Thats why your white strainer so easily gets a yellow stain after few kava preps. You are lucky if more than an additional 5% of the kavalactones get into the water solution.

If a kava has tested for 9% kavalactones - 1lb would have 40.86 grams of kavalactones. You use on average about 28 grams in each prep, thats 2.52 grams of kavalactones. I think you extract only about 20% of that which means you get about 500mg of kavalactones into your system.

As for why hot water works better with extraction as explained in the finding. Well as you use hot water, you (through the hot water) raise the temperature of kavalactones which is an oily substance. It becomes less viscous and easily flows through liquids. Real life eg - when you have oil fats stuck on a dish for washing, normal tap water doesn't do anything to rinse it off but use hot water..voila! so much easier to clean.

Im no biologist, physicist or a chemist. Just good with making sense of things. Maybe you could experiment by mixing 2.52 grams of oil into leftover makas from a 28 gram session and see how much oil you get out of traditional prep. Don't need expensive HPLC machines.

 

[sɥɐʞɐs]

I strongly believe micro is stronger than medium grind kava. I don't understand why people seem to think it isnt. If you really want to do a proper comparison of strength, you need to use the same weight of medium grind as you would of micronized kava. With us, only two teaspoon is needed and you would have had enough of the kava compared to maybe 7 - 8 teaspoon of medium grind which would be needed to reach the same point (of the same kava).

I think we all agree that micro is stronger per part, but in my experience, it's not as strong for me as it is for you. I've had many pounds of micronized kava and countless bags of medium grind and I always tend to use 4-6 Tbsp of micro vs. 8-12 Tbsp. medium grind. If I was getting the effects of 7-8 scoops of medium grind with only using 2 scoops of micro, like you do, then I would be buying micronized a lot more often. But I absolutely don't, so I stick to medium grind. (That's not the only reason though)

As for how efficient our extraction method is with medium grind. Well maybe a lot of you would disagree, but i think the finding by By Gautz, Li, and Bittenbender has some validity towards it.

I think we came to the conclusion that the Bittenbender percentage is pretty much correct, especially considering variables like prep duration and second washes, which might raise the percentage from 15% to 20 or 25 %.

I just weighed some of my typical doses of powder, I use a 2 Tbsp scooper, but I never look at it to make sure I fill it exactly to the line, so I probably get a little bit over 2 tbsp per scoop. The measurements were:

• ~8 Tbsp = 48 grams of kava powder
• ~10 Tbsp = 63 grams of kava powder
• ~12 Tbsp =75 grams of kava powder

These are the nightly doses I use almost exclusively, which one I use depends on how strong the actual overall KL % of the kava is. Or at least how strong I perceive it to be.

Don't need expensive HPLC machines.

The HPLC would be used for more things than just finding out how many milligrams of kavalactones are in a bag of kava. HPLC results would be a bit more definitive as well and as kasa_balavu mentioned, we could test different prep. methods and prep. times etc. If verticity had an hplc then we'd also have a secondary person to corroborate chemotypes and whatever other pertinent experiments we com up with.

 

[kasa_balavu]

• ~8 Tbsp = 48 grams of kava powder
• ~10 Tbsp = 63 grams of kava powder
• ~12 Tbsp =75 grams of kava powder

Bear in mind that this would likely be different for different kava, based on the fineness of the grind.

How much does a HPLC machine cost?

 

[Edward]

When I try to compare potency/effects I got from different fresh kavas in Vanuatu, to the closest equivalent I get with dry powder at home...It felt to me like the typical Vanuatu fresh kava dose was equal to about 8 - 16 Tbsp of dry powder. More often than not, 12-16 tbsp would be the closest proximation, but it can always vary.

You mean per shell?!

 

[sɥɐʞɐs]

Bear in mind that this would likely be different for different kava, based on the fineness of the grind.

How much does a HPLC machine cost?

Yeah, the numbers I listed were for a lawena kava, when I did the same measurent with waka it was an additional ~10 grams.
Other factors that could change the numbers a bit might be, the varying amounts of moisture in different bags, different densities of the root material, higher overall kavalactone content...(not sure if that would be measurable on the gram scale, but maybe a little?) It's probably a combination of all these factors that changes the weight between different kavas.

I think you can get older used HPLC's for a few thousand USD. Not sure what other expenses are involved, Harp would would have a better idea.

 

[sɥɐʞɐs]

You mean per shell?!

Nah, for one whole batch. I never prepare single shells, just one whole batch at night.
So, if you made a big batch of kava with 12-16 Tbsp of root, using something similar to my usual root:water ratio, then scooped one shells worth out, that's about what a single shell feels like in Vanuatu. When I was there, I typically drank a 500 ml 'plastik' plus one or two shells at the nakamal and that felt roughly like the volume I'd drink at home. I think my actual coconut shell holds about 5-6 ounces without filling it to the brim, and a 500 ml bottle is about 17 ounces, so the whole bottle would be around 3 full shells. So if the bottle equals 3 shells plus i drink a couple at the nakamal, then I'm at 5 shells or so -- and that's what I typically drink at home.

Since they use fresh root, which requires a lot more kava than dry powder for equivalent effects, and I don't know their average root:water ratio, I can't say for sure what the dry kava tablespoon equivalency really is. So, I just tried to compare my effects, with the volume I consumed, to what I know of my home prep. With that, I came to the conclusion most kava in Vanuatu is at the very least similar to my 8 Tbsp + 2.5 cups of water mix I do at home -- and quite often higher than that because I was proper, proper buzzing almost every time I drank out there. Which isn't the case when I drink dry kava at home.

​

 

[Krunkie McKrunkface]

I came to the conclusion most kava in Vanuatu is at the very least similar to my 8 Tbsp + 2.5 cups of water mix I do at home

for whatever it is worth that is what I have arrived at as the average ideal proportion for the first wash of trad prepping medium grind, only I do double: 1 cup root to 5 cups water. Of course, I might use more or less water depending on the particular kava, but that's the average and the usual. I find I get better results with a large amount of root, a big bowl, a large bag and lots of water. Something about a certain critical mass or something. I don't know. It just "feels" right. It always gets slurped up in a day or two.

 

[Kava Time]

I think we all agree that micro is stronger per part, but in my experience, it's not as strong for me as it is for you. I've had many pounds of micronized kava and countless bags of medium grind and I always tend to use 4-6 Tbsp of micro vs. 8-12 Tbsp. medium grind. If I was getting the effects of 7-8 scoops of medium grind with only using 2 scoops of micro, like you do, then I would be buying micronized a lot more often. But I absolutely don't, so I stick to medium grind. (That's not the only reason though)

That still is a pretty good result which means 1/2 lb of micro is equivalent to 1lb of medium grind for you. I know it may not be as economical given that micros generally are more expensive to purchase. But to be fair you do seem to require a whole lot more kava than typical users so this maybe a special case..

The HPLC would be used for more things than just finding out how many milligrams of kavalactones are in a bag of kava. HPLC results would be a bit more definitive as well and as kasa_balavu mentioned, we could test different prep. methods and prep. times etc. If verticity had an hplc then we'd also have a secondary person to corroborate chemotypes and whatever other pertinent experiments we com up with.

Oh yes definitely. I was just providing an alternative test to determine extraction efficiency since HPLC machines will probably cost you a liver lol

 

[verticity]

....

How much does a HPLC machine cost?

A lot. Maybe 10-20,000 USD, plus lots of additional expenses such as HPLC grade solvents, replacement lamps, calibration standards, etc. Bittenbender et al actually used a gas chromatograph which would cost about 8-10,000 USD.

I'm actually more interested in less expensive kinds of experiments that I can do in my home lab, such as basic TLC (not HP-TLC), column chromatography, liquid-liquid extraction, and UV spectroscopy. Setting up an HPLC instrument is probably not realistic for me. @Deleted User was able to set one up because he has a lot of experience repairing scientific lab equipment, and more free time than me.

 

[Edward]

Nah, for one whole batch. I never prepare single shells, just one whole batch at night.
So, if you made a big batch of kava with 12-16 Tbsp of root, using something similar to my usual root:water ratio, then scooped one shells worth out, that's about what a single shell feels like in Vanuatu. When I was there, I typically drank a 500 ml 'plastik' plus one or two shells at the nakamal and that felt roughly like the volume I'd drink at home. I think my actual coconut shell holds about 5-6 ounces without filling it to the brim, and a 500 ml bottle is about 17 ounces, so the whole bottle would be around 3 full shells. So if the bottle equals 3 shells plus i drink a couple at the nakamal, then I'm at 5 shells or so -- and that's what I typically drink at home.

Since they use fresh root, which requires a lot more kava than dry powder for equivalent effects, and I don't know their average root:water ratio, I can't say for sure what the dry kava tablespoon equivalency really is. So, I just tried to compare my effects, with the volume I consumed, to what I know of my home prep. With that, I came to the conclusion most kava in Vanuatu is at the very least similar to my 8 Tbsp + 2.5 cups of water mix I do at home -- and quite often higher than that because I was proper, proper buzzing almost every time I drank out there. Which isn't the case when I drink dry kava at home.

​

What I remember from your descriptions of fresh kava as well is that you get a lot less of the negative effects. So basically each Vanuatu shell is at least 2 and maybe 3 tbsps of dried kava in effects. Trouble is most people would likely get more negative effects with that dose of dried.

What interests me is the clean feeling I get from a strong batch of instant. That makes sense if it is what they say it is and it's a batch of kava made with fresh root and then dried. Also I seem to be able to get pretty reliable results with instant and nearly always feel better than with dried. Not as much variety with instant unfortunately though.

 

[sɥɐʞɐs]

What I remember from your descriptions of fresh kava as well is that you get a lot less of the negative effects. So basically each Vanuatu shell is at least 2 and maybe 3 tbsps of dried kava in effects. Trouble is most people would likely get more negative effects with that dose of dried.

What interests me is the clean feeling I get from a strong batch of instant. That makes sense if it is what they say it is and it's a batch of kava made with fresh root and then dried. Also I seem to be able to get pretty reliable results with instant and nearly always feel better than with dried. Not as much variety with instant unfortunately though.

Yeah fresh Vanuatu kava seems to have a different consistency too, not as gritty or sludgy as an equivalent batch of dry would be. It's cleaner and thinner. More kavalactones, but less visible particles, it seems. The flavor is also a bit different and easier to consume (usually). It turned out to be very disheartening to come home to the dry kava, it felt really gritty, more bitter and less clean on the tongue and in it's effect on my body. I think I've heard that there are enzymes or chemicals that change or get lost to the drying process. -- Despite it's overall clean feeling, I still felt a strong appetite suppressant quality, possible even a bit more than I do at home most of the time. The only other major difference I can recall, is that most of the kavas gave me this phlegmy coating on my throat that you feel like you need to clear after the first couple shells. So, perhaps that ubiquitous hacking and spitting, while drinking kava there, isn't only to rid your mouth of the flavor, but also a response to this effect.?

You're right, a strong batch of instant kava does tend to get closest to emulating the nakamal fresh experience. It is still dried though, so something is still lost along the way. But perhaps if the instant is truly made from a prepared batch of fresh kava, some properties remain intact that otherwise wouldn't.

 

[ThatDankK]

It seems the finer the grind the more kavalactones I can extract, and the finer the grind the more washes are effective. There needs to be added focus on kava grind, and not just the type of kava plant it is or where its from. One pound of a coarse grind will yield less kavalactones than one pound of a fine grind of the very same kava.

I know this thread is old but I had an idea I posted in the newcomers forum, well several if you care to look, but this one applies to your theory in general. What if you put the kava in a coffee grinder and ground it up a bit finer and then put it into the strainer bag? Youll likely want a lower micron strainer bag but maybe with the finer grind more KLs would get out? Im interested in the idea as well.

 

[Shelly McKrunkface]

I am a fan of the aluball for two washes (pondering a weak third), and then the makas is saved, compiled and trad prepped - Krunkie's method. The later washes are by far my favourite. And if I end up with silt at the bottom I don't want to mix in, it gets dried in the sun to flakes that then make the most amazing orange juice smoothies! I think we are only beginning to understand the later kavalactones that you can get with this process.

 

[kastom_lif]

So today I tried something different. I ate 2 tablespoons of strong waka, toss n' wash style. Chased it with a spoonful of coconut oil and a tall glass of water.

It was like, time release kava. There was no kavain giddiness. The long term krunk lasted for a long, long time. Instead of a happy session that slowly evolves into mellowness, it was several minutes of trying hard not to hurl, then nothing at all for maybe 20 minutes, and then maybe six hours of slow, steady KL release.

It was... weird. I never did a toss n wash before. Probably won't ever try it again. Still, it was worth it for the experience.

 

[Krunkie McKrunkface]

So today I tried something different. I ate 2 tablespoons of strong waka, toss n' wash style. Chased it with a spoonful of coconut oil and a tall glass of water.

It was like, time release kava. There was no kavain giddiness. The long term krunk lasted for a long, long time. Instead of a happy session that slowly evolves into mellowness, it was several minutes of trying hard not to hurl, then nothing at all for maybe 20 minutes, and then maybe six hours of slow, steady KL release.

It was... weird. I never did a toss n wash before. Probably won't ever try it again. Still, it was worth it for the experience.

It's so great there are people to do things for me so I don't have to.

 

[ThatDankK]

So today I tried something different. I ate 2 tablespoons of strong waka, toss n' wash style. Chased it with a spoonful of coconut oil and a tall glass of water.

It was like, time release kava. There was no kavain giddiness. The long term krunk lasted for a long, long time. Instead of a happy session that slowly evolves into mellowness, it was several minutes of trying hard not to hurl, then nothing at all for maybe 20 minutes, and then maybe six hours of slow, steady KL release.

It was... weird. I never did a toss n wash before. Probably won't ever try it again. Still, it was worth it for the experience.

Try my idea man, zero nausea at all!