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Zac Imiola (Herbalist)

Kava Connoisseur
I wanted to present to you guys an understanding that dawned on me while looking at a glycemic index and eating various different foods to balance my blood sugar and it's occurred to me that sugar is very very very much like drugs. In my experience drugs are isolated chemicals extracted from a whole , or synthesized based off the idea of an isolated chemical coming from a whole plant.
This is kind of a usual topic nowaday's with plants and holistic medicine and all that. It just never occurred to me that sugar followed the same laws and seemed to exhibit the same side effects and benefits when extracted from its whole form.
The glycemic index starts with sugar as the base of 50 because we know sugar is pure glucose .
It rapidly enters the blood stream spiking the energy levels up and rapidly depleting.
The more wholistic the sugar source ... no not maple syrup! Maple syrup is still a 40 to 1 extract to concentrate the sugar.
If you look at processed honey vs raw it's 20 point difference on glycemic index!

The whole realization I guess is that sugar outside of its context is as dangerous as cocaine outside of coca leaf.
 

Pounigirl

Kava Enthusiast
I wanted to present to you guys an understanding that dawned on me while looking at a glycemic index and eating various different foods to balance my blood sugar and it's occurred to me that sugar is very very very much like drugs. In my experience drugs are isolated chemicals extracted from a whole , or synthesized based off the idea of an isolated chemical coming from a whole plant.
This is kind of a usual topic nowaday's with plants and holistic medicine and all that. It just never occurred to me that sugar followed the same laws and seemed to exhibit the same side effects and benefits when extracted from its whole form.
The glycemic index starts with sugar as the base of 50 because we know sugar is pure glucose .
It rapidly enters the blood stream spiking the energy levels up and rapidly depleting.
The more wholistic the sugar source ... no not maple syrup! Maple syrup is still a 40 to 1 extract to concentrate the sugar.
If you look at processed honey vs raw it's 20 point difference on glycemic index!

The whole realization I guess is that sugar outside of its context is as dangerous as cocaine outside of coca leaf.
Did it say where agave nectar fits in? Thanks. :)
 

verticity

I'm interested in things
Sugar water (aka soda, soft drinks, etc) kills over 200k people every year in the US alone. I expect the FDA to act soon... a ban is imminent... any minute now...
I doubt that will happen with the current FDA. Some localities have instituted taxes on sugary drinks.
http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2012/06/soda-sugar-tax-richmond/
Boulder Colorado recently implemented a sugary drink tax for example
https://bouldercolorado.gov/tax-license/finance-sugar-sweetened-beverage-tax
New York City tried and failed to implement an outright ban on large sized drinks. People are much more willing to tolerate taxation as a way to try to change behavior than bans on something that according to the FDA is GRAS- generally regarded as safe:
https://www.fda.gov/Food/IngredientsPackagingLabeling/GRAS/SCOGS/ucm261263.htm
As far as the FDA is concerned the main problem is that sugar can cause cavities, but other than that they are fine with it.
 

Pounigirl

Kava Enthusiast
As far as I can tell, agave nectar is basically the same as high fructose corn syrup, just made from agave instead of corn.. HFCS is about 50% fructose, and so is agave nectar. There's nothing magical about it..
Oh bummer! That's disappointing! I thought it was supposed to be low on the glycemic index. HFCS is bad stuff. :(
 

Groggy

Kava aficionado
Admin
Oh bummer! That's disappointing! I thought it was supposed to be low on the glycemic index. HFCS is bad stuff. :(
You can use vegetable glycerin, as a low-glycemic sweetener but it has just as many calories if not a bit more than sugar.
 

Pounigirl

Kava Enthusiast
You can use vegetable glycerin, as a low-glycemic sweetener but it has just as many calories if not a bit more than sugar.
Thanks Krunky. :) I'm not worried about the calories and I don't use much anyways. Thanks so much for the suggestion. Do you have a link or something to what it looks like?
 

kasa_balavu

Yaqona Dina
People are much more willing to tolerate taxation as a way to try to change behavior than bans
Fiji started that last year. A 20c/litre tax on sweetened drinks. Prior to this only alcohol and tobacco were taxed in this manner. It's a fair tax since these three contribute heavily to health costs, imposing a heavy burden on a country with free/socialised healthcare.
 

verticity

I'm interested in things
Not quite. According to many researchers, smokers, drinkers etc can actually impose lower costs on the welfare/healthcare systems in welfare states because... they die younger. This means no pensions and no (uber expensive) age-related healthcare and assistance.

E.g.
http://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/2/6/e001678
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1360912/
But seriously, I wonder how that calculation would work for obesity-related diseases caused by too much sugar. That would seem more likely to cause chronic long-term diseases like diabetes rather than kill people quickly.
 

Zac Imiola (Herbalist)

Kava Connoisseur
Agave on the glycemic index is actually really low .. I don't see how it can change for how you feel depending on if Dr Oz is right or not . Personally I don't feel cappy when I have a good amount of agave syrup . I do feel shitty from corn syrup
 

verticity

I'm interested in things
Agave on the glycemic index is actually really low .. I don't see how it can change for how you feel depending on if Dr Oz is right or not . Personally I don't feel cappy when I have a good amount of agave syrup . I do feel shitty from corn syrup
I was just going to write a brief reply, but ended up with the following novel. Sorry about this... I can't help it.. :ROFLMAO:

Dr. Oz is an idiot who no one should pay attention to. I just cited that because I thought it was funny...

But let's take a serious look at this issue.

The glycemic index of agave nectar is low compared to glucose because it contains more fructose than glucose:

Agave nectar ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agave_nectar ):
56% fructose,
20% glucose

Compare this with the most commonly used grade of HFCS in sugary drinks, HFCS 55:

HFCS 55 ( http://www.sugar-and-sweetener-guide.com/hfcs-55.html ):
55% fructose,
40% glucose

Also compare with normal "table sugar", sucrose, which consists of a fructose molecule stuck to a glucose molecule:
Table sugar:
50% fructose,
50% glucose

Fructose has to be metabolized into glucose in the liver in order to raise blood sugar, whereas glucose IS blood sugar, so the latter causes levels to spike more quickly, and since it is absorbed quicker, the spike of maximum concentration is higher. But about half of the fructose you consume is converted to glucose (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fructolysis ); the rest is converted to lactate and glycogen, which eventually leads to triglyceride production.

So, what about the health claims that fructose is either better, worse, or equally bad for you compared to glucose or sucrose? This question is pretty controversial. On the "fructose is evil and will kill you" side, we have Robert Lustig:

"Yes, fructose has a low glycaemic index of 19, because it doesn't increase blood glucose. It's fructose, for goodness sake. It increases blood fructose, which is way worse. Fructose causes seven times as much cell damage as does glucose, because it binds to cellular proteins seven times faster; and it releases 100 times the number of oxygen radicals (such as hydrogen peroxide, which kills everything in sight). Indeed, a 20oz soda results in a serum fructose concentration of six micromolar, enough to do major arterial and pancreatic damage. Glycaemic index is a canard; and fructose makes it so. Because fructose's poisonous effects have nothing to do with glycaemic index; they are beyond glycaemic index."
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/oct/21/fructose-poison-sugar-industry-pseudoscience

Here is a summary of some scientific findings which raise concerns about fructose, with a less alarmist tone than Lustig:

"Why is fructose of concern? First, it is sweeter than either glucose or sucrose. In fruit, it serves as a marker for foods that are nutritionally rich. However, in soft drinks and other “sweets,” fructose serves to reward sweet taste that provides “calories,” often without much else in the way of nutrition. Second, the intake of soft drinks containing high-fructose corn syrup (HFCS) or sucrose has risen in parallel with the epidemic of obesity, which suggests a relation (2). Third, the article in this issue of the Journal (1) and another article published elsewhere last year (3) implicate dietary fructose as a potential risk factor for cardiovascular disease. "
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/86/4/895.full

On the pro-fructose side, there is industry-funded propaganda like this:

"Misinformation about fructose recently appeared in the media. This misinformation alleges obesity and negative health consequences from the consumption of HFCS and fructose. .... Low glycemic carbohydrate foods may be of benefit to people with diabetes, as they can help to prevent surges in blood glucose. ...", etc... it goes on cite studies showing fructose doesn't cause people to gain more weight in the short term, and to defend HFCS as well as fructose...
https://caloriecontrol.org/fructose/

And this seemingly reasonable article in a scientific journal, which basically tries to debunk all the bad things that have been said about fructose and HFCS, and concludes fructose and HFCS are not harmful, or at least no more harmful than table sugar:

"At present, we believe that the following conclusions are warranted. First, there is no unique relationship between HFCS and obesity. Second, there is broad scientific consensus that there are no significant metabolic or endocrine response differences or differences in health-related effects between HFCS and sucrose. Third, the metabolism and health effects of both HFCS and sucrose are different from those observed in studies that compare pure fructose with pure glucose, neither of which is consumed to any appreciable degree in the human diet. Fourth, recent randomized clinical trials have suggested that there are no adverse effects on total cholesterol, LDL cholesterol or HDL cholesterol at amounts ranging up to the 90th percentile level of fructose consumption, although other investigators have shown increases in cholesterol and/or LDL cholesterol in subjects consuming either sucrose or HFCS (66, 68–70), so further research studies are needed to clarify this issue. There is, however, a reliable increase in triglycerides from consumption of elevated levels of carbohydrates (particularly simple sugars), which merits further exploration. ..."
http://advances.nutrition.org/content/4/2/236.full.html

But wait, who paid for the above reasearch?

"Author disclosures: J. M. Rippe, consulting fees from ConAgra Foods, PepsiCo International, Kraft Foods, the Corn Refiners Association, and Weight Watchers International. T. J. Angelopoulos, no conflicts of interest."

Oh. Ok, well the fact that the research was paid for in part by the HCFS industry doesn't necessarily mean it's bogus...

Specifically regarding agave nectar, here is a popular article that seems reasonable, saying it's bad for you:

"This "Healthy" Sweetener Is Even Worse Than Regular Sugar"
https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/agave-nectar-is-even-worse-than-sugar#section1

Here's Dr. Weil, who is a celebrity doctor, but one who I have more respect for than Dr. Oz, on agave:

"I’ve stopped using agave myself and no longer recommend it as a healthy sweetener. The reason agave ranks relatively low on the glycemic index is because it has a high content of fructose. Fructose does not readily raise blood sugar (glucose) levels because the body doesn’t metabolize it well. New research suggests that excessive fructose consumption deranges liver function and promotes obesity. The less fructose you consume, the better."
https://www.drweil.com/diet-nutrition/nutrition/whats-wrong-with-agave-nectar/

So given all of the above, what is my own non-expert opinion? I think Dr. Lustig is a bit extreme. I don't think--in moderation--agave nectar, or any form of sugar, will kill you. But I don't think it is very good for you, simply because, in general, it's best to keep simple sugars and carbs to a minimum. IMO, when it comes to any form of sugar/carbohydrates, moderation is the key.
 
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Pounigirl

Kava Enthusiast
I was just going to write a brief reply, but ended up with the following novel. Sorry about this... I can't help it.. :ROFLMAO:

Dr. Oz is an idiot who no one should pay attention to. I just cited that because I thought it was funny...

But let's take a serious look at this issue.

The glycemic index of agave nectar is low compared to glucose because it contains more fructose than glucose:

Agave nectar ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agave_nectar ):
56% fructose,
20% glucose

Compare this with the most commonly used grade of HFCS in sugary drinks, HFCS 55:

HFCS 55 ( http://www.sugar-and-sweetener-guide.com/hfcs-55.html ):
55% fructose,
40% glucose

Also compare with normal "table sugar", sucrose, which consists of a fructose molecule stuck to a glucose molecule:
Table sugar:
50% fructose,
50% glucose

Fructose has to be metabolized into glucose in the liver in order to raise blood sugar, whereas glucose IS blood sugar, so the latter causes levels to spike more quickly, and since it is absorbed quicker, the spike of maximum concentration is higher. But about half of the fructose you consume is converted to glucose (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fructolysis ); the rest is converted to lactate and glycogen, which eventually leads to triglyceride production.

So, what about the health claims that fructose is either better, worse, or equally bad for you compared to glucose or sucrose? This question is pretty controversial. On the "fructose is evil and will kill you" side, we have Robert Lustig:

"Yes, fructose has a low glycaemic index of 19, because it doesn't increase blood glucose. It's fructose, for goodness sake. It increases blood fructose, which is way worse. Fructose causes seven times as much cell damage as does glucose, because it binds to cellular proteins seven times faster; and it releases 100 times the number of oxygen radicals (such as hydrogen peroxide, which kills everything in sight). Indeed, a 20oz soda results in a serum fructose concentration of six micromolar, enough to do major arterial and pancreatic damage. Glycaemic index is a canard; and fructose makes it so. Because fructose's poisonous effects have nothing to do with glycaemic index; they are beyond glycaemic index."
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/oct/21/fructose-poison-sugar-industry-pseudoscience

Here is a summary of some scientific findings which raise concerns about fructose, with a less alarmist tone than Lustig:

"Why is fructose of concern? First, it is sweeter than either glucose or sucrose. In fruit, it serves as a marker for foods that are nutritionally rich. However, in soft drinks and other “sweets,” fructose serves to reward sweet taste that provides “calories,” often without much else in the way of nutrition. Second, the intake of soft drinks containing high-fructose corn syrup (HFCS) or sucrose has risen in parallel with the epidemic of obesity, which suggests a relation (2). Third, the article in this issue of the Journal (1) and another article published elsewhere last year (3) implicate dietary fructose as a potential risk factor for cardiovascular disease. "
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/86/4/895.full

On the pro-fructose side, there is industry-funded propaganda like this:

"Misinformation about fructose recently appeared in the media. This misinformation alleges obesity and negative health consequences from the consumption of HFCS and fructose. .... Low glycemic carbohydrate foods may be of benefit to people with diabetes, as they can help to prevent surges in blood glucose. ...", etc... it goes on cite studies showing fructose doesn't cause people to gain more weight in the short term, and to defend HFCS as well as fructose...
https://caloriecontrol.org/fructose/

And this seemingly reasonable article in a scientific journal, which basically tries to debunk all the bad things that have been said about fructose and HFCS, and concludes fructose and HFCS are not harmful, or at least no more harmful than table sugar:

"At present, we believe that the following conclusions are warranted. First, there is no unique relationship between HFCS and obesity. Second, there is broad scientific consensus that there are no significant metabolic or endocrine response differences or differences in health-related effects between HFCS and sucrose. Third, the metabolism and health effects of both HFCS and sucrose are different from those observed in studies that compare pure fructose with pure glucose, neither of which is consumed to any appreciable degree in the human diet. Fourth, recent randomized clinical trials have suggested that there are no adverse effects on total cholesterol, LDL cholesterol or HDL cholesterol at amounts ranging up to the 90th percentile level of fructose consumption, although other investigators have shown increases in cholesterol and/or LDL cholesterol in subjects consuming either sucrose or HFCS (66, 68–70), so further research studies are needed to clarify this issue. There is, however, a reliable increase in triglycerides from consumption of elevated levels of carbohydrates (particularly simple sugars), which merits further exploration. ..."
http://advances.nutrition.org/content/4/2/236.full.html

But wait, who paid for the above reasearch?

"Author disclosures: J. M. Rippe, consulting fees from ConAgra Foods, PepsiCo International, Kraft Foods, the Corn Refiners Association, and Weight Watchers International. T. J. Angelopoulos, no conflicts of interest."

Oh. Ok, well the fact that the research was paid for in part by the HCFS industry doesn't necessarily mean it's bogus...

Specifically regarding agave nectar, here is a popular article that seems reasonable, saying it's bad for you:

"This "Healthy" Sweetener Is Even Worse Than Regular Sugar"
https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/agave-nectar-is-even-worse-than-sugar#section1

Here's Dr. Weil, who is a celebrity doctor, but one who I have more respect for than Dr. Oz, on agave:

"I’ve stopped using agave myself and no longer recommend it as a healthy sweetener. The reason agave ranks relatively low on the glycemic index is because it has a high content of fructose. Fructose does not readily raise blood sugar (glucose) levels because the body doesn’t metabolize it well. New research suggests that excessive fructose consumption deranges liver function and promotes obesity. The less fructose you consume, the better."
https://www.drweil.com/diet-nutrition/nutrition/whats-wrong-with-agave-nectar/

So given all of the above, what is my own non-expert opinion? I think Dr. Lustig is a bit extreme. I don't think--in moderation--agave nectar, or any form of sugar, will kill you. But I don't think it is very good for you, simply because, in general, it's best to keep simple sugars and carbs to a minimum. IMO, when it comes to any form of sugar/carbohydrates, moderation is the key.
Is it bad that I'm eating chocolate while reading this? lol :p

I do wonder about the fructose 1) If all fructose is created equal or if some fructoses are more equal than others (sorry it was just too easy to make an Animal Farm reference! hehe) 2) How much overall dietary fat intake influences how the sugars behave in the blood stream. When I first went Vegan I tried doing the 80/10/10 diet for awhile and I did notice in my own self that as long as the fat content of my diet was low I did not have a problem with the carbs and sugars from all the fruits and starchy vegetables and I have/had/used to have? Hypoglycemia so I would know right away if my blood sugar was crashing and that never happened to me as long as I kept it very low fat.

I've seen some people on Youtube that are high carb low fat Vegans and have been for decades and they are in perfect health and they even post their complete blood panel results and they are in glowing health with perfect liver function and no elevated levels of triglycerides or bad cholesterol. So I don't know the answer, but anecdotally I wonder if the fat has more of a role to play in it since most people do not eat an extremely low fat Vegan diet so the presence of dietary fat might/maybe skew the studies' results I wonder. I also wonder if agave nectar is metabolized the same way by the body IF one has a high carb low fat diet as the fructose from fresh fruits or if there is a difference since it is a processed sugar. It would be interesting to see what more research uncovers.
 

verticity

I'm interested in things
Is it bad that I'm eating chocolate while reading this? lol :p

I do wonder about the fructose 1) If all fructose is created equal or if some fructoses are more equal than others (sorry it was just too easy to make an Animal Farm reference! hehe) 2) How much overall dietary fat intake influences how the sugars behave in the blood stream. When I first went Vegan I tried doing the 80/10/10 diet for awhile and I did notice in my own self that as long as the fat content of my diet was low I did not have a problem with the carbs and sugars from all the fruits and starchy vegetables and I have/had/used to have? Hypoglycemia so I would know right away if my blood sugar was crashing and that never happened to me as long as I kept it very low fat.

I've seen some people on Youtube that are high carb low fat Vegans and have been for decades and they are in perfect health and they even post their complete blood panel results and they are in glowing health with perfect liver function and no elevated levels of triglycerides or bad cholesterol. So I don't know the answer, but anecdotally I wonder if the fat has more of a role to play in it since most people do not eat an extremely low fat Vegan diet so the presence of dietary fat might/maybe skew the studies' results I wonder. I also wonder if agave nectar is metabolized the same way by the body IF one has a high carb low fat diet as the fructose from fresh fruits or if there is a difference since it is a processed sugar. It would be interesting to see what more research uncovers.
A case can be made (and even Dr. Lustig has said this) that fructose that occurs naturally in fruit is not as bad for you as refined fructose added to things like soda, mainly just because there is less of it. The fructose itself is exactly the same stuff, but if, for example, you eat an apple you are getting a smaller amount of fructose combined with fiber and other good stuff, but if you drink a sugary drink you are just getting a huge dose of nothing but sugar.

And the carbs vs. fats thing is interesting, and I don't think it is resolved. I tend to lean to the low carb camp, but it does seem that the low-carb advocates often minimize the risks of saturated fat, which IMO are real. On the other hand, the advocates of low-fat diets tend to minimize the problems that eating lots of carbs can cause. People who know more about nutrition than me who I have talked to generally recommend something like a Mediterranean diet: whole grains, healthy fats (fish, nuts, olive oil), fruits, vegetables. Avoid refined sugar and flour.
 
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