Could kava/alcohol toxicity be overstated, even in the kava community ?

[Plantacious]

Based on a combination of my conversations with actual kava farmers, and those knowledgable with actual kava culture and history, as well as my own personal kava experience, I am starting to wonder if even within the "pro kava community" that there is an exaggeration of how toxic that a kava and alcohol combination can be - not necessarily at the exact same time, but in close proximity of time to one another.

I realize that many here may not even "want to go there" because it is their personal goal to avoid alcohol altogether.
And I totally respect that.
So this question is for those who, to some degree, still incorporate alcohol into their life, along with kava.
Could it be that kava and alcohol in the same day, for example, may not be as toxic, as even many in the "kava community" have been led to believe.
Of course I'm not talking about extreme amounts of both, and in close proximity of each other, but more like moderate amounts of at least one of the two, near the time of consuming the other.

 

[kavakarma]

There are tinctures which contain 60% alcohol, so if you have one ounce or 30ml it equates to 15 grams Kava alcohol extract and 18ml ethanol, same as a beer or one liquor serving. I've had those once or twice when I was out of Kava or years ago and I notice the alcohol, even mixed in a smoothie.

I am doing well right now, there were some cultural ceremonies in the summer where we enjoyed wine and later on at home I would have Kava for balance. Kava seems spiritual, restorative, and helps with sleep. End of the summer I bottled my own Kava and I was drinking that with greater outcome.

I need clarification if this replies to your question, a portion of experience from myself. Thank you for listening!

 

[ThePiper]

The perceived risk here on the forums of healthy individuals mixing kava and alcohol may may be overstated, but it is something I haven't seen enough evidence on to believe its not risky. Based on both my experience and the couple of studies I've seen (mostly in vitro I think?) It is in fact toxic to the liver when these are combined. I haven't spent a ton of time researching but i do wonder if mixing Tylenol and kava could be even worse than mixing alcohol and kava. I think many people probably do that without thinking twice.

Also, we don't want anyone to get hurt or sick so I think it's good to have the cautious attitude. The last thing kava needs is media attention over someone having liver damage from kava and alcohol.

 

[kasa_balavu]

IMO this is one of those cases where we need to be sowing FUD.
While the occasional combination of the two isn't going to be a problem for anyone with an otherwise healthy liver, there is nothing to be gained by telling people it's OK to combine the two, and (as proven in Europe) so much to lose.

 

[Stonth]

One time a drank a lot of kava, and the next night drank a lot of alcohol (I’m a college student lol). I was hungover for two days, despite drinking plenty of water.


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[Zac Imiola (Herbalist)]

Yeah I personally have tried and had bad reactions... I've also done it and had decent reactions.
The times I did it and had bad reactions were with beer and wine... they caused a strong liver flush effect. I felt dizzy, my face got red and my breath smelled like alcohol for many hours past the usual duration.
This was remedied at the time by taking a large dose of milk thistle tincture.
Another time was with wine... same bad reaction.

The times it worked out were when I had a small amount of clear alcohol diluted in another drink like ice tea or such. When I have dark liqueur in a shot say, I get a similar liver flush to the first examples.
Essentially the cleaner the alcohol. The healthier your liver and the less kava you had that day the better you will be

 

[Mo'iety]

I wrote a comment on another thread discussing the evidence I've come across in my research. TL;DR: Kava inhibits CYP2E1, which is a minor enzyme involved in the metabolism of alcohol, both primary metabolism to acetaldehyde *and* secondary metabolism from acetaldehyde to acetate. Most of the conversion is done by ADH and ALDH2 though which I've seen no evidence of kava inhibiting. So combining kava with small amounts of alcohol occasionally is probably not too much of a concern for healthy people with fully functional ALDH2, but more caution is warranted with larger amounts of alcohol or for individuals who are either partially or fully deficient in ALDH2 (if you're prone to alcohol flush reaction, be extra cautious).

Edit: Personally I've had no issues with drinking one to a few drinks 24h after kava consumption. I avoid consuming them the same day, but have done so on at least one occasion (glass of wine after kava) with no ill effects. I also know I have both functioning copies of the ALDH2 gene.

Edit2: As I've gotten further into kava, I've been drinking less and less alcohol, both because of alcohol being more unhealthy than kava, and just the effects not being as subjectively pleasant in most cases

 

[Krunkie McKrunkface]

My concern is mainly about physical risk of injury from impaired motor control. Plus it feels bad, and kava shouldn’t feel bad. But if others have no problem then they have no problem.

 

[kastom_lif]

IMO this is one of those cases where we need to be sowing FUD.
While the occasional combination of the two isn't going to be a problem for anyone with an otherwise healthy liver, there is nothing to be gained by telling people it's OK to combine the two, and (as proven in Europe) so much to lose.

I agree that kava and alcohol together is a bad idea, and that it could be bad for kava in general if people pick up the habit. However, I don't think that running a FUD campaign is the best approach.

The truth alone is enough to warn people about combining alcohol and kava. I grew up during the "Just Say No to Drugs" era and, frankly, some of the scare tactics used to keep kids away from drugs were just ridiculous.

Facts:
- Alcohol is an addictive poison.
- The liver metabolizes both kava and alcohol. Drinking both means your liver has to work at least twice as hard, and you'll feel the effects of both for much longer.
- Both kava and alcohol are diuretics, and becoming dehydrated can make you feel awful.
- Alcohol has been shown to dissolve flavokavains and pipermethystine more than water can.
- Pipermethystine is only found in aerial parts of the kava plant.

Speculation:
- Alcohol blocks something biologically so that noble kava has wild/tudei effects.
- Kava and alcohol together synergize to cause more liver damage than alcohol alone.
- The old liver damage cases caused by shady kava extracts sold as pharmaceuticals in Europe are somehow due to them being alcohol-based extracts, rather than them being made from aerial parts of the plant.

 

[Kavashua]

The experience I’ve had from drinking the 2 in a less than 24 hour timeframe is enough to make me never do it again. The rash I got although painless was visually bad enough that I got many people offering to take me to the emergency room. I have no idea how damaging the combination is but the effects looked very scary

 

[Plantacious]

My personal experience, FWIW, is taking moderate to high amounts of both the kava and alcohol, within only an 8 hour period.
Numerous times.
And zero negative effects whatsoever.
But I also take supplements to support the liver.

 

[Kojo Douglas]

I used to do it without any problems. Now I rarely drink booze, so don’t really have to think about it.

 

[Zac Imiola (Herbalist)]

- The old liver damage cases caused by shady kava extracts sold as pharmaceuticals in Europe are somehow due to them being alcohol-based extracts, rather than them being made from aerial parts of the plant.

My personal experience, FWIW, is taking moderate to high amounts of both the kava and alcohol, within only an 8 hour period.
Numerous times.
And zero negative effects whatsoever.
But I also take supplements to support the liver.

A) I think it's the fact that they were alcohol extracts, extracting the aerial parts that did the deed. One or the other of each seem like they dont have the potency.

B) what liver herbs are you taking ?

 

[kastom_lif]

A) I think it's the fact that they were alcohol extracts, extracting the aerial parts that did the deed. One or the other of each seem like they dont have the potency.

B) what liver herbs are you taking ?

No doubt, some of those extracts used leaves and green stems for sure. Combine that with alcohol extraction and you’ve got a “pharmaceutical” that’s WAY nastier than even the wildest tudei. No wonder people were getting sick.

 

[Skywalker]

If I drink even a little booze on a rooted night I WILL throw up. so like most things in kava I suspect this is personal.

 

[Dr.Krunk]

In my experience the mixture of the two do not compliment each other very well and generally makes me feel sick. I’m not too concerned with having the other later in the day when the body has already processed the first. It’s like drinking some alcohol and taking some Tylenol because you have a headache. Probably not a big deal if you have a healthy liver and don’t do it often but still not a good practice, but people do it all the time.

The main issue in my opinion is when the liver is trying to process different substances at the same time which it doesn’t do very well. That being said I believe the general consensus being portrayed in the community is harm reduction even if the harm is minimal. As stated already most who stumble upon kava did so coming from a background of other substances in my opinion. Nobody knows everyone’s specific circumstance so we tend to veer towards just wait. I also believe that kava done correctly has been shown to be fairly benign as far as a damaging product and we want to keep horror stories from occurring in conjunction with kava. Most negative interactions are due to a lack of information and misunderstanding unless you are one of the rare cases where the body simply rejects the kavaloactones for whatever reason.

 

[El Guapo510]

I have not had any issues when I space them out within 24 hours. I have not tried them any closer than that.

 

[Zaphod]

Sooo....I have said this before. I have, and still do, occasionally have a drink after a session. Usually a beer, or maybe some bourbon. Usually no more than 1 equivalent drink, sometimes two. I don't have any issues with nausea, flushing, or itching. At worst I feel an amplification of sedation - but this tends to coincide with it being later in the evening as well. For example I tend to drink my kava soon after getting home from work, and before dinner. Maybe a few more shells after dinner depending on how crazy busy we are. Later in the evening when all the daily grind is complete and I am sitting down to netflix (and usually no chill - I am married ) I will have a drink. While I have not had any issues - there are a lot of good reasons to not do this and I can't say I recommend it. There are enough people who do have issues that I would consider myself an outlier.

 

[Zaphod]

IMO this is one of those cases where we need to be sowing FUD.
While the occasional combination of the two isn't going to be a problem for anyone with an otherwise healthy liver, there is nothing to be gained by telling people it's OK to combine the two, and (as proven in Europe) so much to lose.

Warning this is a bit of off topic rant...
I disagree. Not with the recommendation to not do it, but with specifically and intentionally sowing FUD. At least in the US this is a huge problem with our "war on drugs" and more specifically the old "just say no" program. By not having real discussions on both the positive and negative aspects of drugs you drive up the risk. When I grew up we were warned incessantly about the evils of these substances....and when you found out it was full of lies and bullshit you automatically assumed it was ALL lies and bullshit. When you had your first drink, or smoked your first joint and not only lived to tell about it but had a damn good time - you were inclined to think well hell maybe all that bad stuff they tell me is also bullshit. You start to wonder is cocaine really that addictive or is it bullshit? Is heroin really that bad or did they lie about that as well? You can see where this eventually leads.
We should strive to be honest about all aspects of kava - good and bad and build trust with the community. That way when they ask our opinion they trust the answer.

 

[The Kap'n]

Warning this is a bit of off topic rant...
I disagree. Not with the recommendation to not do it, but with specifically and intentionally sowing FUD. At least in the US this is a huge problem with our "war on drugs" and more specifically the old "just say no" program. By not having real discussions on both the positive and negative aspects of drugs you drive up the risk. When I grew up we were warned incessantly about the evils of these substances....and when you found out it was full of lies and bullshit you automatically assumed it was ALL lies and bullshit. When you had your first drink, or smoked your first joint and not only lived to tell about it but had a damn good time - you were inclined to think well hell maybe all that bad stuff they tell me is also bullshit. You start to wonder is cocaine really that addictive or is it bullshit? Is heroin really that bad or did they lie about that as well? You can see where this eventually leads.
We should strive to be honest about all aspects of kava - good and bad and build trust with the community. That way when they ask our opinion they trust the answer.

My suggestion is to 100% reflect reality.

Strongly caution against it, but give information as to why. I believe people are plenty smart enough to understand that they both compete in the liver for resources (enzymes) when they break down. Kava can cause alcohol to stick around (for some people) in it's toxic form longer than it would without kava in your system. To those people especially sensitive to acetaldehyde a mixture of kava and alcohol can be quite uncomfortable even at extended times between the two.

So, no fear, just information.

Also, does anyone else remember hearing that this is more common with people of Asian and European nationality? If I remember correctly, the darker your skin tone, the less likely you are to experience effects between alcohol and kava. This could explain why some nations even incorporate a "wash down" session after kava involving alcohol of some type and experience no negative effects. Then again, I could be totally wrong, and it might not.