Kava Side Effects Kava causing anxiety/paranoia/psychosis due to MAOI/Dopamine?

[dimethyltryptamine]

Hello,

has anyone elese experienced this`?
Actually I experienced psychosis often in the past, oin stimulants, so I'm kinda susceptible for it when my dopamine levels run high.
I just think its strange that kava, the "alcohol/benzo like , anxiolytic root increases my anxiety/parnaoia/psychosis and at the same time mellows me out (but more like muscle/body like)

I dont have that much experience with kava. I burned through 750g of classic noble root, some more heady and some more heavy.
The root I got now is def more heavy and kinda potent.

But when I drink too much the paranoia/psychotic effects gets too strong.
My mind gets all warm/soft due to the gaba but due to the MAO inhibition my dopamine rises so much that i almost become psychotic. Or at least anxious, worrying and paranoid.

Anyone else experiences this?
When I drink too much at once, this happens.
When I space out low doses every 20 minutes its better, but the paranoia is stiull lingering in the back of my head

 

[The Kap'n]

Hello,

has anyone elese experienced this`?
Actually I experienced psychosis often in the past, oin stimulants, so I'm kinda susceptible for it when my dopamine levels run high.
I just think its strange that kava, the "alcohol/benzo like , anxiolytic root increases my anxiety/parnaoia/psychosis and at the same time mellows me out (but more like muscle/body like)

I dont have that much experience with kava. I burned through 750g of classic noble root, some more heady and some more heavy.
The root I got now is def more heavy and kinda potent.

But when I drink too much the paranoia/psychotic effects gets too strong.
My mind gets all warm/soft due to the gaba but due to the MAO inhibition my dopamine rises so much that i almost become psychotic. Or at least anxious, worrying and paranoid.

Anyone else experiences this?
When I drink too much at once, this happens.
When I space out low doses every 20 minutes its better, but the paranoia is stiull lingering in the back of my head

It sounds like maybe you've got some issues with your dopamine system that may have occurred during your stimulant use period. Can I ask how long it's been since you were on the stims? You are right though. Kava is a strange one in that it can stimulate and relax concurrently. MAO inhibition is still on the table in terms of how it works specifically with kava. In fact it breaks down to which kavalactone you've got the most of, and what it's propensity for inhibition of MAOs would be. Also, I've read several studies that reference the MAO activity of kava to begin to show only after about 2-3 weeks of usage.

 

[dimethyltryptamine]

last stim psychosis was like 3 weeks ago
Whats notable is that when i got my first psychosis due to stim overdose, like 7 years ago, it seemed to "unlock" psychosis for me.
Now I get it more easily, although it could be due to different factors, maybe escalating doses.

What I noticed though, at the beginning of the year, january to july I experienced constant anxiety paranoia ptsd like symptoms, panic attacks and psychosis due to low testosterone (as i later found out) I got on TRT which fixed all my mental problems.

For a week or more these mental symptoms start to creep back in my life, maybe its due to the TRT meds losing effectiveness.
I also noticed that Low Testosterone stoppepd some "drugs" from working or them becoming very horrible panic/psychosis ridden.

Maybe it plays a factor here, need to get an appointment to my doc to get some blood checks.

But, idk if its allowed to say that here, when i drink a "bigger" dose on empty stomach AT ONCE (not staggered with 20 minutes in between doses) i get a strong head effect. My heearing distorts, its kinda spacey.
Maybe these effects downregulate itself, only time can tell.

Yeah I agree its hard to pinpoint a direct cause due to the variety of kavalactones and everyones individual neurochemistry.
Who knows, maybe its the yangonin cannabinoid receptor agonism

 

[AlexisReal]

It sounds like maybe you've got some issues with your dopamine system that may have occurred during your stimulant use period. Can I ask how long it's been since you were on the stims? You are right though. Kava is a strange one in that it can stimulate and relax concurrently. MAO inhibition is still on the table in terms of how it works specifically with kava. In fact it breaks down to which kavalactone you've got the most of, and what it's propensity for inhibition of MAOs would be. Also, I've read several studies that reference the MAO activity of kava to begin to show only after about 2-3 weeks of usage.

That last point, and I doubt I will ever begin to even try and fathom out the underlying science of kava, you all being light years ahead of me on this and not a wink of time to start catching up...


But that point about the delayed initial MAO activity, we don't seem to have any scientifically logical concensus established for the reverse tolerance some need to work through, which I have gathered can take 1 to 3 weeks for some people, maybe this is strongly related to that, on the biological level.

So it would maybe be the condition and behaviour of one's personal neurotransmitter systems that determine if and how long reverse tolerance is experienced for.

I never did have to work through any reverse tolerance myself. Day one was effective immediately. But I do know of people who had to persevere for a while, seemingly pointlessly, then suddenly bingo.

 

[dimethyltryptamine]

the kava is "ambae's kava" which is supposed to be a heavy strong kava. and it feels kinda heavy in terms of mellow sedating

 

[The Kap'n]

But that point about the delayed initial MAO activity, we don't seem to have any scientifically logical concensus established for the reverse tolerance some need to work through, which I have gathered can take 1 to 3 weeks for some people, maybe this is strongly related to that, on the biological level.

Ha! Glad you caught that. It may be the only bit of science currently pointing to our perception of reverse tolerance.

the kava is "ambae's kava" which is supposed to be a heavy strong kava. and it feels kinda heavy in terms of mellow sedating

That's an insanely strong kava. You may want to look at kavas that are milder in their effect, as ambae's made me walk sideways even at 50% strength. Different kavalactones effect people differently, and your specific scenario may be aggravated by strongly heady kavas, or kavas with a high percentage content of kavain.

 

[dimethyltryptamine]

i dont know, i tried different vanuatu, hawaiian and fiji kava before, all with the same results.
That feeling acutely lasts like 30 minutes, which correlates with what others call as the "heady rush" which also lasts like 30 minutes.
Maybe is the yangonin coupled with the dopamine activity, the feeling has some THC like traits.

to be exact, the feeling feels like low testosterone all along, a feeling of anxiety paranoia and a ptsd flashback type feeling, which is exactly how i would feel on low Test in the evenings (when the levels naturally drop even further) just plus the kava intoxication (dizzy, "melting" body/muscle feeling

 

[dimethyltryptamine]

I think its more related to my neurochemistry and my ptsd/my past.
I mean in the past i could smoke cannabis in high doses and just be real high and feel good. today, if i smoke just a bit i will get thrown in a ptsd hellhole.

Maybe the GABA effects become stronger over time due to Reverse tolerance (although kava right now is everything but "weak") due to possible receptor upregulation and then override the high dopamin/cannabinoid receptor activity.
I think i should consume it in lower amounts for a longer time to see if this changes anything

 

[Zaphod]

....

I think its more related to my neurochemistry and my ptsd/my past.
I mean in the past i could smoke cannabis in high doses and just be real high and feel good. today, if i smoke just a bit i will get thrown in a ptsd hellhole.

Maybe the GABA effects become stronger over time due to Reverse tolerance (although kava right now is everything but "weak") due to possible receptor upregulation and then override the high dopamin/cannabinoid receptor activity.
I think i should consume it in lower amounts for a longer time to see if this changes anything

Not related to kava, but I would not - and I am only surmising by your username, take any psychedelic like dmt or even weed if you have had periods of psychosis. Even slight episodes. While generally harmless for most folks psychosis, schizophrenia, and high anxiety attacks are known risks for those substances for a small part of the population who are susceptible. Tread carefully my friend.

Related to kava - yes it can be stimulating and relaxing at the same time. Some more stimulating than others. There are some kava's that I can not take in the evening or I will not sleep normally all night. They can produce a "wired" kind of buzz. Ambae is not one of those for me - even though it is strong. So my guess is you are very sensitive to any stimulant and possibly kava is not for you.

 

[Halibut_Acid]

Kava used to make me very anxious, but I also had good experiences mixed in there. So I kept at it and eventually found a balance. If I drink to much kava I still get uncomfortable. How I think of this now is that kava was teaching me about moderation. I would get into racing anxiety loops but this does not happen to me anymore. I'm really not completely sure why I kept drinking it, but now I'm glad I did. I feel as though I've healed some imbalance or something and I would definitely not prefer to love my life without kava.

That being said, I never experienced psychosis and if you are truly experiencing psychosis from consumption of kava, it may be wise to give it a break for some time and let yourself begin to heal from the stimulant abuse naturally. I eventually plan to write out and post the story of my experience with kava and it involved several breaks before I found my balance with it.

 

[AlexisReal]

Ha! Glad you caught that. It may be the only bit of science currently pointing to our perception of reverse tolerance.

That was the exact immediate thought which struck my mind on this. I never have much confidence in my ideas when it comes to kava science though. So it's very assuring to me that such an "authority" (in terms of knowlege and wisdom, not dictator lol) as yourself can assure me my thinking was not so far off the mark.

I mean, it immediately made such sense. And I honestly can't say I have seen or heard any other sciency, source based explanation for reverse tolerance yet, even from the wisest of all members here.

Great digging and research again Kapm.

 

[AlexisReal]

Kava used to make me very anxious, but I also had good experiences mixed in there. So I kept at it and eventually found a balance. If I drink to much kava I still get uncomfortable. How I think of this now is that kava was teaching me about moderation. I would get into racing anxiety loops but this does not happen to me anymore. I'm really not completely sure why I kept drinking it, but now I'm glad I did. I feel as though I've healed some imbalance or something and I would definitely not prefer to love my life without kava.

That being said, I never experienced psychosis and if you are truly experng psychosis from consumption of kava, it may be wise to give it a break for some time and let yourself begin to heal from the stimulant abuse naturally. I eventually plan to write out and post the story of my experience with kava and it involved several breaks before I found my balance with it.

I concur my friend and I can relate to everything you say but I also think that there is is an almost ideal balance and dosing strategy timewise to be found with kava. This amount experienced in my own lessons anyway seem to vary greatly just not between individuals but also myself at all different times from day to day week to month etc.

So it really isn't the most straight-forward line to draw consistently like other medicinal herbs such as the medical one now legal in America mostly for example.

I found myself that it can take a very long time too to adapt to the life of using kava as your main anxioulytic and psychoactive herb.

Too much of any good thing, can cause problems.
With kava, it teally takes adjusting routine, learning over a while how to get the best out of it, minus any sife effects, can be tricky to master, IME, not so..straight out the box!

Not putting it down. Being a natural born psychonaut, I honestly see Kava being very thereutic for the emotipns and mental state, as psyches like Psilocybim etc are shwimg positively, increaseangly legalising across US fast now fpr proven mental health therapy reasons.

I honestly feel kava has great potential in the mental therapeutic movement. I feel the state of kava fafilitates open fear free, neat, very insightful, flowing communication, from the heart.

45 grams was just the magic number for me tonight. It goes up and down for me anyway so it takes a bit or common sense and reserve at those times to draw that Ideal line!

Sorry if I have typically waffled btw. 300 ug Hofmann's magic at weekend, and a good, syretched out 100 gram Kava session...

So please take with a pinch of salt. I feel least qualified here vs other forums I know, to actually "add."

It just helps me to be a part of this purely real, genuine, and intelligent community.

I learn so much crucially, and try to help whenever I can slightly.

 

[dimethyltryptamine]

Related to kava - yes it can be stimulating and relaxing at the same time. Some more stimulating than others. There are some kava's that I can not take in the evening or I will not sleep normally all night. They can produce a "wired" kind of buzz. Ambae is not one of those for me - even though it is strong. So my guess is you are very sensitive to any stimulant and possibly kava is not for you.

Its strange. The mindset i get from the kava is actually very similiar to too much THC, like in overthinking, feeling bad/ashamed about the past, worsening of ptsd symptoms or feeling like when I had low testosterone (which leads to low GABA, leading to anxiety panic, paranoia etc,)

Whats even more strange is that even taking a very potent stimulant drug doesnt cause this bad mindset at first.
So it cant be just the dopamine.
I guess, maybe its the yangonin cannabinoid receptor agonism? cause it feels so much like too much THC.
Not like in feeling high on weed, but the negative mindset that you get from too much weed


Well, no one can really tell, its just speculation.
But also thanks for your input halibut acid, maybe its the theoretizized GABA upregulation that helps (if it exists) with it becoming easier the more you take it.


Like I said, I always had this reacxtion to kava, when I burned through different strains, 750g in total.
But when I did kava while I was on LSD, actually I only got the positives.
A GABAesque, numbing sensation that relieved all my trip anxiety.

I wish Kava wasnt that expensive so I could experiment more and maybe find some equilibrium.

If I knew nothing about KAVA and its effect on GABA, just by the feeling, I would guess that KAVA is a GABA antagonist imo.

 

[Halibut_Acid]

But when I did kava while I was on LSD, actually I only got the positives.
A GABAesque, numbing sensation that relieved all my trip anxiety.

Yes! I had this exact experience. I guess in a way it showed me what is possible with kava but I have had this exact experience where I became incredibly mellow and relaxed almost instantly

 

[AlexisReal]

Yes! I had this exact experience. I guess in a way it showed me what is possible with kava but I have had this exact experience where I became incredibly mellow and relaxed almost instantly

I won't say it is a match made in heaven, but there is certainly complement, and strong potentiation, plus extension. I have drunk kava almost every day for a year, and every time I have tripped it has been accompanied with plenty of kava.

I guess the LSD raising serotonin levels very high is a factor. I know the different kavalactones each raise levels of brain chemicals, to various degrees, including serotonin and dopamine. I have tripped one hell of a lot the past 13 months, like 160 paper squares worth, avereging about 275 ug per week.

I immediately found there to be wonderful synergy with kava.

 

[DaManTheyCallB]

the kava is "ambae's kava" which is supposed to be a heavy strong kava. and it feels kinda heavy in terms of mellow sedating

Im on TRT and have expierenced psycosis in the past myself from just taking way to much stuff trying to self treat depression .

I wanna say Ambaes kava actually made me manic like. I seem to get elevated at times and then will go on a kava and K@ binge. Saying that. I personally cannot say it's just kava becuase Im on TRT, take DLPA, Take Agmatine, and K@ at varying dosages depending on how I feel .

I have read when people get on TRT they can become sensitive to vitamins and substanances. Before TRT I was always lower mood but more level unless I was taking something that elevated my mood. Since TRT my mood seems to be more unlevel . I know for a fact the first day I take my TRT dosages I'm more elevated for the first two days then I level down and I take it weekly . Only say this because I'm wondering if it's your TRT or any other supplements or herbs + the kava that is triggering this mood in you. You and I may of had similar experiences with Ambae. I tend to be a paranoid person myself now a days. Hence why I like kava and K@ .

Is there anything else you take besides Kava and TRT? Because it could be just the combo that's triggering it.

 

[DaManTheyCallB]

I won't say it is a match made in heaven, but there is certainly complement, and strong potentiation, plus extension. I have drunk kava almost every day for a year, and every time I have tripped it has been accompanied with plenty of kava.

I guess the LSD raising serotonin levels very high is a factor. I know the different kavalactones each raise levels of brain chemicals, to various degrees, including serotonin and dopamine. I have tripped one hell of a lot the past 13 months, like 160 paper squares worth, avereging about 275 ug per week.

I immediately found there to be wonderful synergy with kava.

Be careful the brain is a sensitive thing. I have HPPD/visual snow or what I believe it is plus my ears ring now a days. It was all brought on by using mind "expanding" substanances. For the last 3 years there has been a haze over my vision and the world looks unreal dreamy in a way. It happened after a psycosis. It feel like I'm in a light trip and with my OCD mind absolutely sucks. I encourage you to look up Human Persistent Perception Disorder. I didn't know it was a thing until after I started showing symptoms. Just want ya to be aware becuase I wasn't.

 

[AlexisReal]

Be careful the brain is a sensitive thing. I have HPPD/visual snow or what I believe it is plus my ears ring now a days. It was all brought on by using mind "expanding" substanances. For the last 3 years there has been a haze over my vision and the world looks unreal dreamy in a way. It happened after a psycosis. It feel like I'm in a light trip and with my OCD mind absolutely sucks. I encourage you to look up Human Persistent Perception Disorder. I didn't know it was a thing until after I started showing symptoms. Just want ya to be aware becuase I wasn't.

Hi, thanks, and yes I am fully aware of this. I have pretty full hppd, as well as an optic nerve injury as result of a 2016 accident. Except I think it stands for something different, like "hyper persistent perceptive disorder" I believe.

I took my first psychedellics in 1996, by 2005 when Lyme Disease destroyed my health and life, I had taken 3500 ecstasy pills. A good 1000 trips in total to date.

So I hear you, but I'm a natural born psychonaut at heart. I have learned to take the rough with the smooth.

My real trouble is major physical illness from Lyme Disesse, no immune system, permanent severe multiple respiratory infections, and the most severe allergies immaginable.

That one 2004 tick bite destroyed my life way more than all of those psychedellics, or any other thing I have done or has happened to me in my 40 year life.

But I don't discount or disagree with your wise message. I actually have Tinnitus also, but it developped in 2013 as a direct side effect from a viral ear infection.

I can myself, comfortably and easily live with all of the side effects from my psychedellic use, but I can't cope with the allergies, infections and debilitating permanent fatigue from Lyme Disease.

 

[dimethyltryptamine]

I changed my testosterone replacement therapy regimen and when I am dialed in I will try kava again and see if something changes to its effect

 

[DaManTheyCallB]

Hi, thanks, and yes I am fully aware of this. I have pretty full hppd, as well as an optic nerve injury as result of a 2016 accident. Except I think it stands for something different, like "hyper persistent perceptive disorder" I believe.

I took my first psychedellics in 1996, by 2005 when Lyme Disease destroyed my health and life, I had taken 3500 ecstasy pills. A good 1000 trips in total to date.

So I hear you, but I'm a natural born psychonaut at heart. I have learned to take the rough with the smooth.

My real trouble is major physical illness from Lyme Disesse, no immune system, permanent severe multiple respiratory infections, and the most severe allergies immaginable.

That one 2004 tick bite destroyed my life way more than all of those psychedellics, or any other thing I have done or has happened to me in my 40 year life.

But I don't discount or disagree with your wise message. I actually have Tinnitus also, but it developped in 2013 as a direct side effect from a viral ear infection.

I can myself, comfortably and easily live with all of the side effects from my psychedellic use, but I can't cope with the allergies, infections and debilitating permanent fatigue from Lyme Disease.

Sounds like you're physical issues cause you plenty of pain and hell. I hope you're able to get them resolved somehow in the future.