Kava Research The Correlation between Cancer Incidence and Kava Consumption

[verticity]

Fair enough. I agree with your review of the study. However, we (as a kava community) should make sure we are putting the same critical analysis & critique against the anti-cancer studies as this one. I am not a huge fan of the "superfood" movement that is mostly a marketing ploy (like pomegranate juice).

Agreed. The last thing we want is for supplement makers to seize on these very preliminary studies and start touting concoctions made with crappy extracts as a cure for cancer. A good example of that kind of thing that essentially turned out to be a fiasco was the whole "megavitamin/antioxidant" craze:
http://kavascience.org/posts/t53-The-Vitamin-Myth-and-Linus-Pauling
That story has a lot of interesting parallels about the hazards of attempting to isolate an active ingredient of a healthy natural product and convincing people to take megadoses of it..

 

[Zac Imiola (Herbalist)]

Agreed. It's an extract in massive doses for one..
I just took an ounce worth of kava in tincture form yesterday . Not a fan .. it's not kava the way I know it and definitely the way my body knows it .
I miss kava ... more is coming tomorrow .. today I'm off completely from It.

The extract just doesn't have the safety record the water based prep. I don't trust it for daily use in my body. Not that I think I would die ... but I just don't like how I feel today after having that much tincture ... mind you that was 3 tablespoons of kava for that whole bottle.. the chemical composition is just different.

 

[Blinkyrocket]

Agreed. The last thing we want is for supplement makers to seize on these very preliminary studies and start touting concoctions made with crappy extracts as a cure for cancer. A good example of that kind of thing that essentially turned out to be a fiasco was the whole "megavitamin/antioxidant" craze:
http://kavascience.org/posts/t53-The-Vitamin-Myth-and-Linus-Pauling
That story has a lot of interesting parallels about the hazards of attempting to isolate an active ingredient of a healthy natural product and convincing people to take megadoses of it..

Eh, supplements aren't pure, and the impurities can cause gut problems, the pure vitamins themselves- In laboratory conditions - are totally harmless. Linus Pauling was technically right about vitamin C and cancer, it just has to be intravenously injected. Also, Sodium Ascorbate can be better than Ascorbic Acid. It's funny to watch people so ravenously shoot researchers down as "quacks", you can tell their appetite for it is much more voracious than their appetite to see someone succeed. I don't really know what else Linus Pauling theorized, I only hate it when people are extremely quick to label someone as a "quack" (at least, quicker than they would normally give someone the benefit of a doubt). Science isn't meant to be interpreted to anyone's whims, it's only meant to "be there". Interpretation of science only gets in the way of science, so you can assume you know what a research conclusion means - nothing wrong with that - but as soon as you stop looking for other explanations for a research conclusion, you've "let science down". If you want the comfort of faith and belief, get religion instead. If anyone "falls prey" to actual quacks, then that's just going to happen. We can't turn into ravenous beasts/idiots just because there are some "quacks" out there.

Besides, who really gives a crap about their physical health (Besides the people who are peer pressured into staying thin etc.)? You're always going to get less healthy as you age, it's always going to be an agonizing, slow process of death. I say, let it come quicker and less painfully.

EDIT: Also, Vitamin E has many different tocopherols, some of which seem to have beneficial effects and some that don't and some that seem to have harmful effects, like the synthetic ones. I think some of the natural tocopherols can be bad, too. The most popular multivitamin seems to come with the harmful tocopherols of Vitamin E.

 

[Mo'iety]

That is interesting, but a couple things to keep in mind:

- As far as I can tell, that study used inbred strains of rats and mice that are more susceptible to cancer than normal rodents (and also more susceptible to cancer induced by chemicals):
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3246016/
"When using specifically susceptible mouse strains such as the B6C3F1 hybrid, relatively high and variable incidences of liver tumors can occur in the untreated or vehicle control mice."
Maybe @PepperyPyrone would know more about that..

- They fed these inbred rodents massive overdoses of kava extract. The study used 0.125 - 2 grams of extract per kg of body weight. For a 75 kg person that would be like eating 10 - 150 grams of concentrated extract every day. Even when they did this for 2 years, the survival rate was the same as the controls; so actually I'm a bit surprised they weren't able to kill more of them...

So this study is interesting as it shows the extremes, by demonstrating how susceptible animals respond to huge overdoses, but I don't know how relevant it is to human beings drinking normal amounts of kava...

Another thing to note is that this study didn't see any carcinogenic activity in rats. I read somewhere else (don't remember where) that human livers have more in common with rats than mice livers, and that mice livers express some enzymes that we lack and vice-versa. Just throwing this out there for more reason that this study shouldn't alarm anyone.

 

[bobarctor]

Not sure if anyone posted this study on DHM yet

Dihydromethysticin, a natural molecule from Kava, suppresses the growth of colorectal cancer via the NLRC3/PI3K pathway [studied on human cancer cell lines + ectopic human CRC model]

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/mc.23182

 

[Alia]

Yes, nice study, and there are numerous others with varying results of exacting what (in kava) does the good work to prevent lung, prostate and colon cancers.
Another out of UF shows why kava seems to play a role for folks wishing to quit smoking and presents some more specifics on prevention of lung cancer.

 

[AlexisReal]

I happened across this paper that points out a the low incidence of cancer in countries where kava is consumed (pdf attached). There are a lot of problems with the paper (the apples-to-oranges comparison of reported incidence of disease in developed vs. developing countries; the uncertainty of trying to assign causality to one particular aspect of a culture to a specific statistic, etc.). It's not a rigorous paper at all, but it is interesting to consider this in light of recent finding laboratory findings that kava (and flavokavains in particular) may have a protective effect against cancer.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0944711316302045
But the level of rigor is comparable to the studies showing elevated GGT enzymes in small cohorts, so I'm throwing it out there for discussion. Any speculation about the effect kava consumption might have on overall population mortality levels (and there is no evidence that it has any effect, either pro or con), needs to consider this.

Note the above in vitro study has statistics for the specific case of colon cancer in the Pacific Islands, but also notes that they are low. Quote:

"There is a low incidence of colon cancer in the South Pacific Islands, including Fiji, West Samoa, and Vanuatu (Steiner, 2000; Foliaki. et al., 2011). The incidence of cancer (2000–2005) is lower for people in the Pacific (Tonga, Fiji, Cook Islands, Niue) compared to Pacific people living in New Zealand (Age-standardized cancer incidence rates: 315 per 100,00 person-years in females, 379 in males), which is similar to the rates for New Zealand overall. For Fiji, the rates were 231 and 126 (per 100,00 person-years for females and males), respectively."

It is especially interesting to note the gender difference in cancer incidence, since in traditional kava drinking societies (and Fiji might be the best example today where the traditional culture still exists to a large extent) kava is only drunk by men.

It could well be the kava itself having such a preventative action against cancer but also there are many other variables particularly diet where are unrefined coconut oil is the primary source of fats and is used in cooking vs man-made fats and vegetable oil of any sort which is extremely and particularly cancer-causing especially when heated where it becomes super highly carcinogenic in contrast to the original dictation which was handed out when these man-made fats such as margarine and vegetable oil were mass marketed to the general populace as being better and healthier alternatives in the 60s or 70s.

At the same time as demonizing and labelling the natural saturated fats such as coconut oil and butter and beef dripping etc as being the primary cause of heart disease they also touted the strong selling point of these refined oils as being able to withstand high temperature cooking without oxidizing and forming cancerous compounds AKA carcinogens.

This has been proven to be a complete lie in recent years solidly by science and these refined And man-made versions of fat of any sort were proven to be be off the scale in terms of carcinogenicity when heated to higher temperatures while in contrast the cold pressed unrefined versions produced literally a small fraction of the carcinogens in comparison.

It was long ago proven how refined man-made fats directly and heavily contribute to cancer formation.

In many of these islands I imagine that the primary fat sauce and especially for cooking is unrefined coconut oil so this demographic itself could be playing a huge parts in the low incidence of cancer as well as other dietary factors and perhaps even significantly reduced exposure to electromagnetic Fields which are also proven to be an incredibly significant and Powerful cause of cancer development.

That said I am not at all against the concept that kava itself can be cancer preventative and curative to an extent.

I have wondered what the effect of kava is on the whole bodily alkalizing and acidifying effect certain substances can have on the body because if Kava has a powerfully alkalizing effect then this would significantly reduce ones chances of developing cancer and many other serious health conditions as a result.

 

[Alia]

It could well be the kava itself having such a preventative action against cancer but also there are many other variables particularly diet where are unrefined coconut oil is the primary source of fats and is used in cooking vs man-made fats and vegetable oil of any sort which is extremely and particularly cancer-causing especially when heated where it becomes super highly carcinogenic in contrast to the original dictation which was handed out when these man-made fats such as margarine and vegetable oil were mass marketed to the general populace as being better and healthier alternatives in the 60s or 70s.

At the same time as demonizing and labelling the natural saturated fats such as coconut oil and butter and beef dripping etc as being the primary cause of heart disease they also touted the strong selling point of these refined oils as being able to withstand high temperature cooking without oxidizing and forming cancerous compounds AKA carcinogens.

This has been proven to be a complete lie in recent years solidly by science and these refined And man-made versions of fat of any sort were proven to be be off the scale in terms of carcinogenicity when heated to higher temperatures while in contrast the cold pressed unrefined versions produced literally a small fraction of the carcinogens in comparison.

It was long ago proven how refined man-made fats directly and heavily contribute to cancer formation.

In many of these islands I imagine that the primary fat sauce and especially for cooking is unrefined coconut oil so this demographic itself could be playing a huge parts in the low incidence of cancer as well as other dietary factors and perhaps even significantly reduced exposure to electromagnetic Fields which are also proven to be an incredibly significant and Powerful cause of cancer development.

That said I am not at all against the concept that kava itself can be cancer preventative and curative to an extent.

I have wondered what the effect of kava is on the whole bodily alkalizing and acidifying effect certain substances can have on the body because if Carver has a powerfully alkalizing effect then this would significantly reduce ones chances of developing cancer and many other serious health conditions as a result.

In the last decade a multitude of researchers (UC, Irvine, U of Minn., U. of Florida, NYBG, et. al.) have come out with convincing studies that show why kava beverage, and I'll admit some well made extracts, very likely prevent- colon, lung, breast, and prostate cancers. Most all these studies have been referenced within these Forums and can be downloaded.

 

[AlexisReal]

In the last decade a multitude of researchers (UC, Irvine, U of Minn., U. of Florida, NYBG, et. al.) have come out with convincing studies that show why kava beverage, and I'll admit some well made extracts, very likely prevent- colon, lung, breast, and prostate cancers. Most all these studies have been referenced within these Forums and can be downloaded.

Yes totally I don't dispute this at all. I was just making, in my view, the very important point that man made fats are directly cancer causing and massively health sabotaging in general.

And in these countires, raw coconut oil is the primary source of dietary fat for many. So it is just an additional factor.

I was not at all disputing the notion of kava itself being directly powerfully preventative and curing for cancers, as are so many of the natural medicinal herbs, regard.ess of psychoactivity.

I admit openly, I know very little about kava compared to most of you here, but as a result of longterm illness and deep study into food and dietary factors and health/disease etc, I have picked up a lot of knowledge on those aspects, which are always relevant in any situation and equation.

 

[Orz[EST]]

It is especially interesting to note the gender difference in cancer incidence

I was thinking about Western food but sex difference makes that point moot. Sounds plausible.

 

[The Kap'n]

@Alia

Calling this thread back from the past.

I've been reading "Kava as a clinical nutrient: Promises and Challenges" and have just run into section 6.1. Do you know anything extra about the NTP's "Kava Kava Extract" powder?

The study goes to say that they assume this was likely ground kava powder, however I have to wonder if this was indeed an extract powder that was mixed with maltodextrin in order to arrive at a powder.

 

[Alia]

@Alia

Calling this thread back from the past.

I've been reading "Kava as a clinical nutrient: Promises and Challenges" and have just run into section 6.1. Do you know anything extra about the NTP's "Kava Kava Extract" powder?

The study goes to say that they assume this was likely ground kava powder, however I have to wonder if this was indeed an extract powder that was mixed with maltodextrin in order to arrive at a powder.

I'll try and track down a detailed answer for you all soon.