Front Page of the Vanuatu Daily Post - The End of Kava Exports?
- Thread starter Andrew Procyk
- Start date
infraredz
BULA!
That can be said again... and again... and again.
So many people here have put so much effort into stuff like the Wiki (and notable threads, research links, the search function) and I feel that people don't make good use of the resources that are available here.
CanAwa
1 kava 2 kava 3 kava COUCH
This forum has helped me immensely with kava prep and advice on varieties I should try.This forum has more information about kava than anywhere else and it's because of the members that work tirelessly to make that possible . That being said I don't think I would of connected with the forum as much had I been met with cold answers to questions that perhaps could have been found on wiki . Also asking questions was a good way of connecting with others on the forum. If I hadn't asked them I perhaps would have just read the wiki and left and not have interacted with the good people here .
Thanks for responding. I will, more than likely, try to call you soon, but I have been crazy-busy as of late as well. Think I might just get all this noise over sooner rather than later, and move the family to the land of kava.
As per 11mg/kg, I would personally not say that is the limit. It could be lower. The 25mg/kg showed damage too, but this follow-up study showed issues at less than half that level.... so my position is that there is too much we don't know to consume without longitudinal evidence in an industry that is "so delicate," so to speak. As per acetaminophen being taken off the shelves - of course not, but it should definitely carry warnings about dosage, damage, use of alcohol, etc. (Instead of just telling people not to, an explanation would be nice.) If we want kava to be considered a "safe food" we should not have to label it with a bunch of warnings.
As per threshold - I will let you know as soon as the colorimetric test is "perfected." That is to say, when Ruth and Vincent figure out how orange is "too" orange (because we don't yet know where the "line" is between yellow and orange) and we figure out what the story is behind the molecules responsible for the color difference - because they are a mystery. It may not give us lactone content, chemotype or cultivar - but it should definitively tell us about the type of kava used, and is easy and cheap!
What spooks me the most is all the neutraceutical companies' products. Has anyone out there EVER seen a kava tincture that is not orange or brown? That would mean some seriously bad news if one considers Lebot's test. (Of course, who knows what color ethanol they begin with?) I know I have not seen a yellow one, and dose-per-dose, people consume MUCH more tincture-droppers than water-based shells, and the solvents pull out a lot more soluble solids, etc... including FKB. (What I was told is 5x's the rate of water!)
So, the question to me is, how do we get the companies with their droppers in every major health food store to realize how important this issue is?
Hopefully, the codex will get filed and accepted expeditiously, and the lousy stuff will simply not be allowed on the market any longer - if someone wants to file an NDI for tudei, they can, and label it accordingly, etc. It does seem to have some anti-cancer properties in lab tests after all... but so does methysticin!
Cheers!
AP
I think you hit the nail square on the head. (You're damned if you do, you're damned if you don't.) I think every vendor that regularly participates on here deserves some recognition, because in addition to lots of promotion, they all open themselves up to getting lots of $#!+.
Frankly, because I am a 'vendor,' it looks like I have a horse in the race - but frankly, the web-based sales we do are not enough for me to have an opinion on other vendors as "competitors," etc. I genuinely care about the future of the industry, particularly for people who are trying to do the right thing, and that's a fact, Jack.
My 2 cents.
Andrew
As far as competitions among vendors goes, I hope it's healthy kind of competition. I think having many different vendors is a good thing. When I actually find a person that likes kava enough to really get into kava it's good to have options for them. Finding the right kava for someone is....well it's kind of like buying shoes. The only way to really know is to try'm on.
And sometimes you just want to "wear" something different for a while and get a bag or two from somewhere else.
And sometimes you just want to "wear" something different for a while and get a bag or two from somewhere else.
We're all on the same team here. I just want everyone to know that. We appreciate your input as much as we do Judd's, Adil's and both Chris's. In fact the whole site was started to connect members with members and members with vendors. The more interaction the better.
infraredz
BULA!
I definitely second what Kapm said. I think it needs to be said that the fact that we have the sort of relationship and participation with vendors (the people behind the company) is unprecedented.
It's truly one of the most unique and desirable aspects of this forum. I thank all the vendors for having the guts to come on here and deal with us pesky people who might question them, challenge them, etc. Like Andrew said, all the vendors are really opening themselves up to a lot. I can think of lots of times where vendors have been "confronted" so to say by members, but everything ALWAYS stays civil and that is the amazing thing.
It's truly one of the most unique and desirable aspects of this forum. I thank all the vendors for having the guts to come on here and deal with us pesky people who might question them, challenge them, etc. Like Andrew said, all the vendors are really opening themselves up to a lot. I can think of lots of times where vendors have been "confronted" so to say by members, but everything ALWAYS stays civil and that is the amazing thing.
Tyler
Kava Vendor
If we are talking about an 11mg/kg mouse dose... then we use the Km equation to estimate a human dosage. 11mg/kg * 3 /37 = .892mg/kg human dose. Consider a 170lb human is 77.2kg. This is a dose of 68.8mg. Thats a very significant amount of FKB that needs to be ingested to arrive at the mouse dose equivalent in this study.
In terms of the amount of FKB in tudei Kava...R. Teschke et al. had found that Palisi, a vanuatu tudei variety contained 3.5mg of Flavokavain per gram of dried material, as opposed to 0.35mg per gram of a Samoan noble variety. Consider for a moment that Flavokavain B is hardly soluble in aqueous Kava extracts. Lets go out on a limb and say that you get 25% of the flavokavain B out of the Tudei root.... you will be getting 3.52mg * 25% = .88mg per gram of material. Assume that the average Kava shell has 1.6g of root per ounce of liquid (approx 200g dry kava per gallon) and you will be getting 1.375mg of Flavokavain B per 4 ounce shell of Kava. Consider that this study is suggesting that a 68.8mg dose is causing an issue after chronic abuse. 68.8 / 1.375 = 50 4 oz shells.
The message is that you shouldn't drink 50 shells of Tudei Kava every day because, well, it MAY cause an issue. I'm not sure thats news to anyone.
While the experts in the field aren't avid supporters of Tudei - None of them say flat out that its dangerous. They simply say that its not DAILY DRINKING Kava. This has somehow been extrapolated into, "Tudei Kavas are dangerous." Tudei kava is recognized as having too much of a medicinal value to be drunk every day as a recreational kava. Although not a daily drinking kava, Tudei has its uses and should be recognized and celebrated for those uses. In my opinion, there is a strange push to demonize this strain when the reality is that its a good medicinal that has 10 times the cancer killing potential of recreational kava.
Lol love you Andrew, I know you want to kill me over our differing viewpoints on this one. Just want to put this into perspective. If I'm wrong on any points, please point them out, this post is at the end of a long day.
Amount of Flavokavain B in water based kava extract:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2992378/
In terms of the amount of FKB in tudei Kava...R. Teschke et al. had found that Palisi, a vanuatu tudei variety contained 3.5mg of Flavokavain per gram of dried material, as opposed to 0.35mg per gram of a Samoan noble variety. Consider for a moment that Flavokavain B is hardly soluble in aqueous Kava extracts. Lets go out on a limb and say that you get 25% of the flavokavain B out of the Tudei root.... you will be getting 3.52mg * 25% = .88mg per gram of material. Assume that the average Kava shell has 1.6g of root per ounce of liquid (approx 200g dry kava per gallon) and you will be getting 1.375mg of Flavokavain B per 4 ounce shell of Kava. Consider that this study is suggesting that a 68.8mg dose is causing an issue after chronic abuse. 68.8 / 1.375 = 50 4 oz shells.
The message is that you shouldn't drink 50 shells of Tudei Kava every day because, well, it MAY cause an issue. I'm not sure thats news to anyone.
While the experts in the field aren't avid supporters of Tudei - None of them say flat out that its dangerous. They simply say that its not DAILY DRINKING Kava. This has somehow been extrapolated into, "Tudei Kavas are dangerous." Tudei kava is recognized as having too much of a medicinal value to be drunk every day as a recreational kava. Although not a daily drinking kava, Tudei has its uses and should be recognized and celebrated for those uses. In my opinion, there is a strange push to demonize this strain when the reality is that its a good medicinal that has 10 times the cancer killing potential of recreational kava.
Lol love you Andrew, I know you want to kill me over our differing viewpoints on this one. Just want to put this into perspective. If I'm wrong on any points, please point them out, this post is at the end of a long day.
Amount of Flavokavain B in water based kava extract:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2992378/
D
Deleted User01
Tyler, your points make sense so I'm not going to throw away my left over Koniak yet or at least I won't feel bad if I give it to someone. 
You have thrown your point of view out there and now it's up for debate. This is a good thing.
By the way, what are the medicinal uses for Tudie?
You have thrown your point of view out there and now it's up for debate. This is a good thing.By the way, what are the medicinal uses for Tudie?
D
Deleted User01
Tyler, you made it abundantly clear when you addressed Andrew. We have been hammering Tudie for weeks around here to the point that I was ready to throw Kava away. It is nice to hear differing opinions and differing research so that we can arrive at a solid decision. I drink alcohol on my non Kava days (though I have tapered down quite a bit) and I'm scared to death of damaging my liver. Full disclosure, I have been drinking for 40 years now and my liver is ok .... so far. I want to keep it that way. I'm not an alcoholic (missed it by one gene) but I surely understand the dangers of overimbiding. I love the idea of the American Kava Association. I wished you would in touch with Chris at GHK who heads up the Hawaiian organization. I think you guys would have a lot to talk about. Maybe you already have.
It is nice to hear differing opinions and differing research so that we can arrive at a solid decision. I drink alcohol on my non Kava days (though I have tapered down quite a bit) and I'm scared to death of damaging my liver. Full disclosure, I have been drinking for 40 years now and my liver is ok .... so far. I want to keep it that way. I'm not an alcoholic (missed it by one gene) but I surely understand the dangers of overimbiding. I love the idea of the American Kava Association. I wished you would in touch with Chris at GHK who heads up the Hawaiian organization. I think you guys would have a lot to talk about. Maybe you already have.
kavadude
❦ॐ tanuki tamer
I'm glad you quantified the amount of FKB that makes it into an aqueous extract -- that is more or less what I was thinking -- that kava, the beverage, is about as benign as it gets.
My personal concern is that we have idiot supplement companies running around and grinding up/dissolving everything they can get their hands on. I'd rather we all get together and draw the line ourselves rather than letting the FDA/EU/whomever do it for us.
My personal concern is that we have idiot supplement companies running around and grinding up/dissolving everything they can get their hands on. I'd rather we all get together and draw the line ourselves rather than letting the FDA/EU/whomever do it for us.
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Tyler
Kava Vendor
This is an absolute concern of mine as well. However, Lebot himself seems to dismiss the amount of Flavokavain B in modern western Kava extracts as being insignificant:
"Furthermore, in commercial Western kava extracts, pipermethystine was not detectable and flavokavain B was present as a natural compound in amounts much too low to cause experimental liver injury."
Source:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21377431
This is where I seem to have a serious disconnect with the tudei / flavokavain issue. The issue seems to have existed 15 years ago with mystery material being extracted with acetone, which extracts absolutely everything. Modern extraction methods, using proper solvents, and adequate quality control measures have eliminated the issue from western extracts. So theres the official verdict on western kava extracts from Lebot.
Traditionally Squeezed Tudei Kava:
Since the amount of FKB that is actually extracted in water extracts is nearly insignificant, I feel like I'm just missing something altogether as to why the FKB content in Tudei kavas is even an issue if you are simply making kava with it rather than extracting it with acetone. Table 1 from Zhou's study, shows that the amount of FKB in water is next to nothing!
Source:
http://www.fasebj.org/content/early/2010/08/09/fj.10-163311.full.pdf Page 5. Table 1
How then, do we extrapolate that Tudei is dangerous, declare war on it, and go as far as publishing fear mongering news articles that get published in google news and draw negative attention to Kava as a whole? Why not just be more realistic about tudei and say that it contains a high proportion of "undesirable" kavalactones such as DHK and DHM compared to Noble Kavas, and that because of this, its not suitable for daily consumption. Even go as far as to say that these lactones when consumed in excess, can make the user feel a little nauseated and groggy. However, painting the picture that tudei is dangerous and not to be consumed under any circumstances, and extrapolating that it was the cause of liver toxcitiy 15 years ago (and never again since), seems a bit rash to me.
My analysis, my opinion.
Can anyone present to me sufficient evidence that the amount of FKB in aqueous Tudei Kava extract (Traditionally squeezed kava) presents any significant threat to human health?
Tyler
Kava Vendor
BTW, I am not advocating for Tudei and Medicinal kavas to be sold under the guise that they are daily drinkers. I would advocate for proper transparent testing, labeling, and an advisory as to what Tudei is and how it differs from daily drinking kava, IF a vendor wants to sell it for variety's sake and a customer wants to try it for variety's sake.
D
Deleted User01
I have always maintained that talking about Tudie was bad for Kava in general. We have always been concerned for the Newbies (which we love dearly) and rightfully so. I want to resolve this issue ASAP and put it in the WikePedia and be done with it. I don't want some reporter finding this forum and cherry picking the bad parts.
BKH and PK are pretty much there already with the responsible labelling. It's very clear that BKH Koniak* and PK Isa are not for recommended for beginners or daily drinking when you try to buy them. I think I've seen Adil from PK kind of "slate" his own Isa at times - it sounds like he doesn't really like it himself and is quite open about that.
* I am including it here despite the controversy over whether it's really a Tudei or not.