If we are talking about an 11mg/kg mouse dose... then we use the Km equation to estimate a human dosage. 11mg/kg * 3 /37 = .892mg/kg human dose. Consider a 170lb human is 77.2kg. This is a dose of 68.8mg. Thats a very significant amount of FKB that needs to be ingested to arrive at the mouse dose equivalent in this study.
In terms of the amount of FKB in tudei Kava...R. Teschke et al. had found that Palisi, a vanuatu tudei variety contained 3.5mg of Flavokavain per gram of dried material, as opposed to 0.35mg per gram of a Samoan noble variety. Consider for a moment that Flavokavain B is hardly soluble in aqueous Kava extracts. Lets go out on a limb and say that you get 25% of the flavokavain B out of the Tudei root.... you will be getting 3.52mg * 25% = .88mg per gram of material. Assume that the average Kava shell has 1.6g of root per ounce of liquid (approx 200g dry kava per gallon) and you will be getting 1.375mg of Flavokavain B per 4 ounce shell of Kava. Consider that this study is suggesting that a 68.8mg dose is causing an issue after chronic abuse. 68.8 / 1.375 = 50 4 oz shells.
The message is that you shouldn't drink 50 shells of Tudei Kava every day because, well, it MAY cause an issue. I'm not sure thats news to anyone.
While the experts in the field aren't avid supporters of Tudei - None of them say flat out that its dangerous. They simply say that its not DAILY DRINKING Kava. This has somehow been extrapolated into, "Tudei Kavas are dangerous." Tudei kava is recognized as having too much of a medicinal value to be drunk every day as a recreational kava. Although not a daily drinking kava, Tudei has its uses and should be recognized and celebrated for those uses. In my opinion, there is a strange push to demonize this strain when the reality is that its a good medicinal that has 10 times the cancer killing potential of recreational kava.
Lol love you Andrew, I know you want to kill me over our differing viewpoints on this one. Just want to put this into perspective. If I'm wrong on any points, please point them out, this post is at the end of a long day.
Amount of Flavokavain B in water based kava extract:
There are multiple cultivars of kava that would be considered "tudei" and they are not wild. There are wild, naturally propogating cultivars of Piper Wichmanii that produce heavy, long lasting effects that people deem "tudei" but these aren't considered kava varieties that are fit for drinking.Isn't tudei a wild kava? Wild kava couldn't possibly survive if sterile.
What? Nobody said lateral root kava is dangerous.I'm starting to think that this site has fallen under the spell of a few people using fear tactics to boost the sales of their own products. I might be in the minority here but I simply don't think it is cool for any vendor to be spouting crap about a product that their competitor sells. They should communicate instead of posting on a public forum. Also, I don't really care what the numbers are. Think about where the Kava is grown and the people harvesting it. Are they in a hazmat suit? Are they wearing sterile gloves? You probably don't even want to know. Even Chris from Gourmet, who is very hands on, probably doesn't wash his hands every five seconds. How about we make a rule, no one gets to say shit about any strain of kava or vendor of kava unless they cross their hearts and hope to die that they, themselves, don't ingest any alcohol, any kind of drug, fast food, microwave dinners, sushi, carbonated water, high fructose syrup, etc. The exception would be if someone actually dies with a coroners report stating that kava was the cause. Yeah it's harsh, but until someone actually documents a death from drinking lateral root kava, I don't want to hear it. In fact, despite reports that non lateral root causes liver damage, can someone document a single death? Sorry to rant. Peace.
Well, those people there have been drinking it for a long time no problems. And I still don't know why people say its tudei. I didn't even think it was more potent than any other heavy kavas like boroguru. There's also definitely a kavain and DHK aspect to it, otherwise it wouldn't start off so heady.This whole Tudie business is messy. Perhaps Kovet is as frustrated as I am because it is hard to get the facts and who do we know that every got sick? I still like the adage, "Drink the Kava that has been ingested by people for 1000s of years without harm". Even they knew better than to mess with wild Kava, unless it was a medical emergency. There really aren't that many suspect Kavas, you have a few ISAs and a few PNGs. If you like those, do them in moderation and be done with it. Myself, I'm almost reluctant to drink my PNG. Why tempt fate?