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An interesting observation on chemotypes

Edward

Aluballin' in the UK
Kava Vendor
I thought this merited a new thread because I found it quite interesting. I've been looking into a few things and out of the kavas that have caused me nausea there is a possible trend. It seems it's not DHM that is my problem it is M. I went through the chemotypes and percentages for as many of the kavas I have tried that I could find COA's for and it seems my favourite kavas tend to have high DHK and K and low M and Y. The kavas that have made me nauseous have all had high M. DHM maybe not as much of a problem, not sure yet. The trouble is you can't always get a COA. I will keep an eye on this as I get more types of kava to try. This would save a lot of time and money if it were that simple, just look at the chemotypes on the COA and know whether it will be good for you or not... great.
 

Zac Imiola (Herbalist)

Kava Connoisseur
Hmmm, that makes sense, cause the only two things kava does that bothers me is A) antsyness which i think is yangonin.. and B neausea which you seemed to discover is M for you! Sweet ! what kavas have low of both of those ??
 

Edward

Aluballin' in the UK
Kava Vendor
Pentecost Pride is the best kava I have had so far, high DHK and K and low of everything else. I get a good bit of euphoria with that which I guess is the K and I get a good bit of anxiolytic effects which could be the DHK? All of the others are relatively low. All taken together I get a good rush of happiness and warmth with no nausea, I really like it.

Malekula magic is another good one but according to the coa the total KL content is only about 4% so it's a weak one. That sort of fits with my experience of it. But it is the right blend of KL's for me to get the right effect.

It's nice to find that the kavas I like the most are all of a similar mix of KL's.
 

Edward

Aluballin' in the UK
Kava Vendor
I've been doing some thinking about the above. In the west we tend to have the mindset that if you find a good medicinal plant the way forward, the way to "improve" it, is to extract the active ingredient and chuck the rest away. Part of the enjoyment of kava is the ritual of preparing it, making a relaxing setting, taking your time over the event to make it and keep it something special. I think in part this is what the Kavasseur was getting at when he was talking about the tudei/noble thing, rather than medicalising kava and analysing it so we know everything there is to know about it we should maybe get more into the spirit and culture of it. I agree that the culture side of it is important, to remember where it comes from and maybe pay homage to the kava gods once in a while. For me though I want kava to be an enjoyable experience so any way that I can use the analyses, the COA's and the chemotypes to make my kava experience more enjoyable, say by helping to avoid a certain KL that tends to cause me nausea, then I'm going to take that into account as well. I don't think you can separate the different KL's so easily as you ALWAYS take a certain percentage of ALL the KL's together in varying quantities which is precisely what gives kava it's interest. You can try 10 different kavas and get 10 slightly different results.

Some other points in no particular order...

If it really is the M that causes me nausea then logically absolutely any kava will give me nausea if taken in a high enough dose because sooner or later I will be consuming a large enough amount of M to give me the problem.

I'm surprised to look at the COA for Nene from Kava Europe and find that it is low in M. It seems to have a similar chemotype to my fav Pentecost Pride. This is well reported as a heavy kava I believe? I have to admit I am yet to try it but looking at the COA it looks like it could be one for me according to my theory. I'll definitely give it a go. I'm willing to believe that despite it having a similar chemotype to another more heady blend it could have a different effect just because every kava is a mix of different KL's in different amounts and so all kavas have a slightly different effect.

I had a though about instant and root powder. The COA of quick kava powder from Kava Europe gives certain figures for each KL per weight of dry powder. Well, one thing to consider is that in theory ALL of those KL's will be in your drink in the respective percentages because you're just adding water and mixing. Compare that to root powder when even with a good blender method you're lucky to extract 50%. Something to bear in mind. That said the Pentecost Pride is nearly double the total level of KL's anyway so at 50% extraction you should be getting roughly a similar amount of KL's shell to shell. That explains why a 2 tablespoon session of the instant is less powerful than the 3 tablespoon session of the powder even though everyone thinks instants are stronger.

Sorry this is a bit of an essay, just thinking out loud. I hope this helps someone else at some stage sorting out their kava thoughts.
 

Steve Mariotti

Kavapithecus Krunkarensis
Review Maestro
Really intersting. M is not on my radar much, it's sort of along for the ride and I haven't seen a strong correlation between M placement in chemotype and the effects of the kava. I will pay more attention and see if I can corroborate your experience. I do get nausea from kava every session, usually towards and then, and I rely on it to let me know when I've had enough and to not get too shellfaced.
 

Edward

Aluballin' in the UK
Kava Vendor
So anyway, had 6 tsps. of QKP tonight, 3 then 3 just over 30 mins apart, second shell just kicking in, feeling just fine thanks and no nausea at all (yet!). This is high DHK, lower K and the rest very low in comparison. Slight numbing of the mouth after the second shell, good body relaxation and pleasant warmth. I like it.
 

Edward

Aluballin' in the UK
Kava Vendor
Really intersting. M is not on my radar much, it's sort of along for the ride and I haven't seen a strong correlation between M placement in chemotype and the effects of the kava. I will pay more attention and see if I can corroborate your experience. I do get nausea from kava every session, usually towards and then, and I rely on it to let me know when I've had enough and to not get too shellfaced.
I'm glad someone is finding it interesting and not just self indulgent rubbish! :)

So basically you use the nausea as a sign to stop chugging kava? As I said above sooner or later with any kava you will have consumed enough M to cause nausea just because it's in every kava. Whether it's the M that causes problems for everyone or if it's just me I don't know? I'm guessing plenty of people are sensitive to it but haven't figured out that's what's causing it? I'm definitely going to keep an eye on this and just see how I feel on the kavas selected by my theory.
 

Steve Mariotti

Kavapithecus Krunkarensis
Review Maestro
Yeah, kava is self-limiting for me. If I have too many shells (even if I space them out every 30 minutes) I get nauseated. I drink a little ginger beer to help sort me out, but yeah, the kava speaks to me through nausea to tell me when I've had enough. Kind of like that about it.
 

Steve Mariotti

Kavapithecus Krunkarensis
Review Maestro
I'm glad someone is finding it interesting and not just self indulgent rubbish! :)

So basically you use the nausea as a sign to stop chugging kava? As I said above sooner or later with any kava you will have consumed enough M to cause nausea just because it's in every kava. Whether it's the M that causes problems for everyone or if it's just me I don't know? I'm guessing plenty of people are sensitive to it but haven't figured out that's what's causing it? I'm definitely going to keep an eye on this and just see how I feel on the kavas selected by my theory.
My previous theory on nausea is that the numbness that kava causes does something to your stomach to confuse it. The stomach is basically the sensor array for your digestive system (and enteric nervous system) which analyzes food and then runs one of a bunch of pre-built "programs" to get the food through your system. Primarily to tell the small intestine what to expect, and to detect poisons, etc. If that sensor array is numbed by the anesthetic properties of kava, it runs the wrong program, creating nausea (puke this shit up!) diarrhea (PURGE, no, not the way you came in, take the back door!) and so forth.

That's my theory anyways, only backed up by my own anecdotal evidence.
 

CactusKava

Phoenix, AZ
Kava Vendor
My previous theory on nausea is that the numbness that kava causes does something to your stomach to confuse it. The stomach is basically the sensor array for your digestive system (and enteric nervous system) which analyzes food and then runs one of a bunch of pre-built "programs" to get the food through your system. Primarily to tell the small intestine what to expect, and to detect poisons, etc. If that sensor array is numbed by the anesthetic properties of kava, it runs the wrong program, creating nausea (puke this shit up!) diarrhea (PURGE, no, not the way you came in, take the back door!) and so forth.

That's my theory anyways, only backed up by my own anecdotal evidence.
I didn't realize other people also had the same issue as I have. Every time I drink kava, I get nausea. Even maka-less GHK micro and really finely filtered grog make me nauseous, so I'm just flat out confused about what's really going on. I just know that when I drink kava, I'm not doing anything but sitting and watching some Netflix. I *wish* I could do more while I've got it in my system, but if I move around too much, I'll have problems.

I think it's a two part thing: 1) The stomach is getting supremely plastered with kava's weird effects. 2) You continue to taste the kava, making the nausea worse. I'm always cheweing peppermint gum or candied ginger to rid my mouth of the taste because of this reason. I've noticed though, that I don't get this way from extracts like PK, so I think you're on to something. I also didn't get nausea from downing Gaia pills (like 10 at a time), so I personally don't think it's from one of the kavalactones -- but this is all anecdotal, so I really haven't a clue, @Edward . :)
 

violet

Do all things with love
Is the kava causing any subtle vision changes? Nausea kicks in for me when the kava affects my eyes, really screws with the vestibular system. It's why not moving around can make the nausea better. Ginger has never helped my kava induced nausea, but mine is a problem in the brain. One thing that does work is benadryl, if something that may be considered.
 

Steve Mariotti

Kavapithecus Krunkarensis
Review Maestro
Is the kava causing any subtle vision changes? Nausea kicks in for me when the kava affects my eyes, really screws with the vestibular system. It's why not moving around can make the nausea better. Ginger has never helped my kava induced nausea, but mine is a problem in the brain. One thing that does work is benadryl, if something that may be considered.
I wonder if something like dramamine would work, since it's inner ear and motion (or the equilibrium system in brain.) Of course kava + dramamine probably means a 4 hour nap for most people.
 

violet

Do all things with love
I almost suggested Dramamine. I imagine it would, but as you mentioned it's very sleep inducing!
 

CactusKava

Phoenix, AZ
Kava Vendor
Is the kava causing any subtle vision changes? Nausea kicks in for me when the kava affects my eyes, really screws with the vestibular system. It's why not moving around can make the nausea better. Ginger has never helped my kava induced nausea, but mine is a problem in the brain. One thing that does work is benadryl, if something that may be considered.
Sometimes I'll get vision changes, but only if I go absolutely bonkers and drink more than I should. On a usual night, I'll do 2 or 3 shells at 2 tablespoons of medium grind with each. If I go overboard and do 4 or 5, I'll get vision changes. By the second shell the nausea will be present, just not overly powerful.

@Squanch72 's jug system of mixing kava into juice/V8 helps reduce nausea to barely noticeable, really. Again, something with the taste really gets to me.
 

Squanch72

Kava Vendor
Instead of dramamine I use meclazine. It's on the shelf right next to the dramamine. I use it for when I get bad migraine auru. It doesn't make me sleepy.
 

Edward

Aluballin' in the UK
Kava Vendor
Interesting thoughts all. As I mentioned last night I had 6 teaspoons of Quick kava instant and had no nausea as such, nothing like the previous evenings but I did get a bit of a fullness which made it hard work to eat, but I ate and didn't feel sick at any point. 6 teaspoons of instant is quite a bit for me and I definitely got a good effect but QKP is high in DHK and the K content is quite a bit lower so I didn't get as much of the euphoria and "good" feeling. I'll stick with my theory and keep to types with high DHK and K and low M and Y and see how I go.

BTW @CactusKava I sent you a message, did you get it?

I have been in the lorry most of this week with only one night at home so I've mostly been on instants with one night of Loa Waka. I've got a couple of nights at home now so I can try out a few things with the root powder. I've been mixing my kava stronger recently and getting it in faster but as I will have more time for a session tonight I may try mixing a good amount of root but with more water and taking smaller shells, space it out a bit. I can't remember what types I've got left to try but I may just have a nice Pentecost Pride night :)
 

Edward

Aluballin' in the UK
Kava Vendor
Actually I'm wondering if it's the repeat dosing that causes the problems? Everyone always says to split the dose, don't drink too much too soon, etc. Well perhaps it's the "delivery method" ie chugging 4 to 8 oz of peppery water that contributes to the problem? I probably didn't need 6 teaspoons of QKP last night to have a good effect, 4 would probably have been enough and I have had 4 teaspoons of this instant in 6 or 7 oz of water one time with no problems. So maybe the nausea that a lot of people feel is down to drinking a type of kava that will cause them nausea, they're just prone to it but also that splitting the dose up and repeatedly hitting the stomach with kava is worse than mixing it stronger and taking less shells overall.

My last session on Pentecost Pride I mixed 3 tablespoons with 2 1/4 cups of water and split it into 3. I got it in no problems and didn't feel any nausea, just felt great. What would have happened if I had mixed 3 tablespoons with 1.5 cups water and only had 2 shells? This is all experiment and experience but I want to find the best way for me to get this job done.
 

Edward

Aluballin' in the UK
Kava Vendor
Ok, so in the interest of science (yeah right) I'm going to try something out. I have some time on my hands today to have a nice relaxing kava session, tomorrow maybe not so much. I'm going to try something out. Today I will mix 4 tablespoons of Pentecost Pride in 3 cups of water and have 1/2 a cup every 30 mins until it is gone, a couple of hours or whatever, then I will do my usual eat, drink some milk, etc. Tomorrow I will mix 3 tablespoons with 1.5 cups of water and have 3/4 of a cup twice, 30 to 45 mins apart and I will report any differences. It's a tough job but someone's got to do it.
 
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