Instant hangover?

[MaritimeMan]

So for the last few sessions, I've been experiencing something awful. As soon as I'm done drinking my shells, within an hour or two, I get what I can only describe as a hangover, which will then last for a good 18 to 20 some hours. It never used to be like this, and I don't know what's happening.

Last night I tried the 'house blend' from KWK, which I had had before. I took a half a cup (half of what I normally take in a night). Soaked for over and hour, kneaded for 15 minutes (just as I have done many times in the past). I had some mild euphoria, and mild relaxation. It was nice, but nothing crazy. I spaced it out over a couple hours, and I drank a ton of water. I took a magnesium pill, some B-12 vitamins, and some electrolyte powder, all to try and negate this hangover. But just like the last few times I've had kava, within an hour of stopping drinking, this awful hangover-like feeling (along with very slight headache this time) comes on, and doesn't go away until well into the next day.

I'm hoping other people have experienced this and know what's going on? I'm in Canada, and so have had to ship my Kava up from the States, and so if this is what my kava journey will be like from here on out, then I'm out several hundred dollars worth of kava that I can no longer use.

Any thoughts?
Thanks guys.

 

[The Kap'n]

This sounds like the sedative nature of most kavas. About 30 minutes to an hour are when the sedative effects can suddenly become apparent.

How long have you been drinking kava, and how much kava are you using per session?

 

[PapaCthulu]

Three areas of inquiry.

1. How much liquid do you drink in a day? What do you drink? What type of work do you do?

2. Is it allergy season where you are at? I highly doubt it being in Canada, but you never know.

3. Do you take a multivitamin?

 

[MaritimeMan]

This sounds like the sedative nature of most kavas. About 30 minutes to an hour are when the sedative effects can suddenly become apparent.

How long have you been drinking kava, and how much kava are you using per session?

I've been drinking Kava since the Summer of last year, off and on when I could get it. I use about a half a cup of medium grind per session, and would often have two sessions in a night (not last time though).

 

[MaritimeMan]

Three areas of inquiry.

1. How much liquid do you drink in a day? What do you drink? What type of work do you do?

2. Is it allergy season where you are at?

3. Do you take a multivitamin?

1. Probably not as much water as I should be drinking. I also drink decaf coffee (no caffeine for me). But the last time I had a kava sessions, I drank a LOT of water, hoping to negate this awful feeling. I don't drink alcohol at all. For work, I'm a video editor, so I sit at a desk mostly.

2. It's full blown winter right now, so no allergies.

3. I don't take a multivitamin, but I do take some supplements (some b vitamins, vitamin d)

 

[PapaCthulu]

This sounds like the sedative nature of most kavas. About 30 minutes to an hour are when the sedative effects can suddenly become apparent.

How long have you been drinking kava, and how much kava are you using per session?

Based off of what you've told us, I think that the Kap'n is spot on... Which is not unusual. My recommendation would be to try a Samoan or Tongan kava. Something light on the spectrum if you're willing to try again.

 

[MaritimeMan]

Based off of what you've told us, I think that the Kap'n is spot on... Which is not unusual. My recommendation would be to try a Samoan or Tongan kava. Something light on the spectrum if you're willing to try again.

I've recently purchased (but not yet opened) some Loa Waka from Kalm with Kava. Would you happen to know if this is lighter on the spectrum before I open it?

 

[PapaCthulu]

I believe from what I have heard, that the House Blend includes Fijian Kava. I have had them both, and I would consider the Loa Waka heavier, with a higher concentration of Kavalactones. It's actually my favorite Kava that I have had personally.

 

[MaritimeMan]

I believe from what I have heard, that the House Blend includes Fijian Kava. I have had them both, and I would consider the Loa Waka heavier, with a higher concentration of Kavalactones. It's actually my favorite Kava that I have had personally.

But not something you'd recommend for someone in my position? Also, any idea why this is happening to me and (I'm assuming) not to others?

 

[PapaCthulu]

But not something you'd recommend for someone in my position? Also, any idea why this is happening to me and (I'm assuming) not to others?

I hate to say it but if the sedative kava effects are messing with you somehow and you're having trouble with the house blend then it probably would not be for you.

As for why...

It depends. Why do you not drink caffeine?

 

[MaritimeMan]

I hate to say it but if the sedative kava effects are messing with you somehow and you're having trouble with the house blend then it probably would not be for you.

As for why...

It depends. Why do you not drink caffeine?

Damn. Have you heard of that happening before?

I try to stay away from caffeine as it can give me anxiety.

 

[PapaCthulu]

I will try and reduce the use of medical terminology that I use to make this as easy to understand as possible as medical language is needlessly overly complicated.

I have heard stories of some people getting headaches with kava. There are six major compounds that produce effects in kava. The two that cause major sedative effects are Dihydrokavain (DHK) and Dihydromethysteticin (DHM). If you are looking at a kava label, those are number 2 and number 5 on the chemotype label if one is supplied. For example, the typical starting chemotype profile of most kavas from fiji start with the numbers 432. The typical chemotype profile of kavas from Vanuatu are 241. DHK is the third most prevalent kavalactone and the first most prevalent kavalactone in most Fijian and Vanuatuan kavas. I think that these two chemicals might be causing your blood vessels to dilate enough to where can cause you discomfort in the form of a headache. This usually occurs as a result of the downregulation of the sympathetic nervous system. I won't go into further detail due to the fact that this post is already getting into term paper territory, but you can search the forum for more information.

Usually, you will get decent amounts of either 2 or 5 in noble kava. But many people seem to run into problems when you get high concentrations of both compounds on the label.

The interesting thing is that most of the kavas that are high in these compounds are Tudei Kavas. Now don't get me wrong. There are noble kavas that contain high amounts of both compounds, but you don't see them, or Tudei Kavas on the market very often outside of Isa kava from PNG that is sold by kava depot and root of happiness here in North America.

The reason I asked about your coffee consumption was to make sure that my theory appeared to be correct. You noted that caffeine can give you anxiety. When you drink caffeine, it binds to receptors in your brain. How well it binds to receptors can vary from person to person, which is why some people can tolerate caffeine well, and some people can't. It is genetic. You can't help it. Kavalactones also bind to receptors in your brain. My theory is that the receptors in your brain may be more sensitive to chemicals and compounds than the average human being, which would make you more sensitive to certain substances such as caffeine, DHK and DHM.

There are four possible solutions in my opinion.

#1. and #2. Experiment with different strains of kava and maybe try kavas that are as light on the spectrum as you can that have as little DHK and DHM as you can find. I recommended Tongan kava for you because the chemotype profile almost always starts as 643 with lower concentrations of DHK and DHM.
#2. Reduce your dosage of kava even further if you can.
#4. Try giving kava a break for a few weeks or a month. Then reduce the amount of sessions that you have so that the compounds have less of a chance to bind to the receptors in your brain.

 

[MaritimeMan]

I will try and reduce the use of medical terminology that I use to make this as easy to understand as possible as medical language is needlessly overly complicated.

I have heard stories of some people getting headaches with kava. There are six major compounds that produce effects in kava. The two that cause major sedative effects are Dihydrokavain (DHK) and Dihydromethysteticin (DHM). If you are looking at a kava label, those are number 2 and number 5 on the chemotype label if one is supplied. For example, the typical starting chemotype profile of most kavas from fiji start with the numbers 432. The typical chemotype profile of kavas from Vanuatu are 241. DHK is the third most prevalent kavalactone and the first most prevalent kavalactone in most Fijian and Vanuatuan kavas. I think that these two chemicals might be causing your blood vessels to dilate enough to where can cause you discomfort in the form of a headache. This usually occurs as a result of the downregulation of the sympathetic nervous system.

Usually, you will get decent amounts of either 2 or 5 in noble kava. But many people seem to run into problems when you get high concentrations of both compounds on the label.

The interesting thing is that most of the kavas that are high in these compounds are Tudei Kavas. Now don't get me wrong. There are noble kavas that contain high amounts of both compounds, but you don't see them, or Tudei Kavas on the market very often outside of Isa kava from PNG that is sold by kava depot and root of happiness here in North America.

The reason I asked about your coffee consumption was to make sure that my theory appeared to be correct. You noted that caffeine can give you anxiety. When you drink caffeine, it binds to receptors in your brain. How well it binds to receptors can vary from person to person, which is why some people can tolerate caffeine well, and some people can't. It is genetic. You can't help it. Kavalactones also bind to receptors in your brain. My theory is that the receptors in your brain may be more sensitive to chemicals and compounds than the average human being, which would make you more sensitive to certain substances such as caffeine, DHK and DHM.

There are four possible solutions in my opinion.

#1. and #2. Experiment with different strains of kava and maybe try kavas that are as light on the spectrum as you can find that have as little DHK and DHM as you can find. I recommended Tongan kava for you because the chemotype profile almost always starts as 643 with lower concentrations of DHK and DHM.
#2. Reduce your dosage of kava even further if you can.
#3. Try giving kava a break for a few weeks or a month. Then reduce the amount of sessions that you have so that the compounds have less of a chance to bind to the receptors in your brain.

Wow, thank you so much for this detailed response! I'll certainly give your suggestions a try. I'll probably give myself a break and then may try some tongan kava on your recommendation.

Would you happen to know if Loa Waka from KWK is high in DHK and DHM? I was thinking of returning it unopened otherwise.

 

[PapaCthulu]

Loa waka is a Fijian kava with the chemotype 432. It is moderately high in DHK and low in DHM. It's profile is similar to the house blend which also uses Fijian kava. If you have problems with house blend, there is a good chance that you will have problems with the waka.

 

[MaritimeMan]

Loa waka is a Fijian kava with the chemotype 432. It is moderately high in DHK and low in DHM. It's profile is similar to the house blend which also uses Fijian kava. If you have problems with house blend, there is a good chance that you will have problems with the waka.

Ah, ok cool. Thanks SO much for taking all this time to help me out! Hopefully this thread helps others too!

 

[Edward]

@MaritimeMan can you go into a bit more detail about what exactly you mean when you say "hangover"? I think rather than being a problem with heavy kavas it might be the opposite and a problem with the kava being too heady. I have had a "comedown" effect from very heady kavas that was similar to coming down from E or amphetamines. I couldn't ever describe the beautiful numbing and sedating effect of a heavy kava as anything approaching a hangover. Maybe the next morning I don't feel so bright but not exactly hungover. I'd be interested to find out more about the symptoms.

 

[MaritimeMan]

@MaritimeMan can you go into a bit more detail about what exactly you mean when you say "hangover"? I think rather than being a problem with heavy kavas it might be the opposite and a problem with the kava being too heady. I have had a "comedown" effect from very heady kavas that was similar to coming down from E or amphetamines. I couldn't ever describe the beautiful numbing and sedating effect of a heavy kava as anything approaching a hangover. Maybe the next morning I don't feel so bright but not exactly hungover. I'd be interested to find out more about the symptoms.

It's very hard to describe. I only had a mild headache during the night and it went away the next day. But during that night and the next day (as well as a few other times) my head feels very uncomfortable. Swimming. Foggy. Tight. It's a very unpleasant feeling.

I've never tried E or amphetamines, so I can't compare to those.

 

[PapaCthulu]

It's very hard to describe. I only had a mild headache during the night and it went away the next day. But during that night and the next day (as well as a few other times) my head feels very uncomfortable. Swimming. Foggy. Tight. It's a very unpleasant feeling.

I've never tried E or amphetamines, so I can't compare to those.

I would like to note that DHK and DHM are notorious for staying in your system along time. If you look up at my super long post, you will note that I spoke on Tudei kava. There is a saying that it's called Tudei Kava because the effects (good or bad) can last for two days. That would possibly explain why you are having long lasting headaches. The DHK and DHM can also make your head feel "foggy."

 

[Edward]

It's very hard to describe. I only had a mild headache during the night and it went away the next day. But during that night and the next day (as well as a few other times) my head feels very uncomfortable. Swimming. Foggy. Tight. It's a very unpleasant feeling.

I've never tried E or amphetamines, so I can't compare to those.

Ok, and exactly what kava were you drinking?

Edit: Sorry, read the first post again!

It's as I thought, the house blend is a headier kava. I would recommend getting some different kavas and trying those and seeing if you get the same effect. I would definitely try something a bit heavier and see how you get on with that. If you get the same effect then it's something in all kavas that gives you that effect. If you drink a heavier kava and don't get that effect then you're sensitive to headier kavas as I am. I know a lot of people who can't drink heady kavas without feeling mentally uncomfortable and yet a nice heavy kava just calms them down with some nice muscle relaxation and sedation. You're not likely to get much euphoria from a heavier kava but you're a lot less likely to get the weird head thing.

 

[yestothat]

I've been drinking Kava since the Summer of last year, off and on when I could get it. I use about a half a cup of medium grind per session, and would often have two sessions in a night (not last time though).

So, that's a full cup of ground kava per night (2 sessions)? That's a LOT of kava to consume in one night... When you have kava on consecutive days/nights, the effects can be cumulative. If I consume more than 1/2 cup in one day, my body reacts negatively within 30 minutes - nausea, panic, bloat, etc. And then brain fog and malaise the next day.

I suggest taking a break for a few days and trying a different product from one of the recommended vendors. Good luck.