Kava after valium wears off?

[yepimonfire]

Long story short, my last run of meds didnt work so now i am taking valium, instead of taking valium in the evening (once the dose wear off of course), id rather drink kava as it works better and leads to more restful sleep. I know one guy here does this with xanax and is okay, what do you think? I have taken several other meds metabolized by the enzymes in question (including vicodin when i blew my knee out) with no issues.

 

[yepimonfire]

Forgot to mention im on a tiny dose, 2mg

 

[yepimonfire]

As far as I know, I'm not violating any terms of service, the valium was prescribed to me of course.


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[sɥɐʞɐs]

I don't have any facts to back this up, but, I'm guessing it wouldn't be that bad. Especially if you're letting the Valium wear off 1st...plus 2mg really is a pretty low dose for Valium. Valium does have a longer half-life though, compared to Xanax...so it might be possible that your body is still processing the Valium even though you feel as if it's worn off. Probably not great to do, especially on a daily basis...but if there were a serious acute danger to it, I feel like that info would be out there already. One benefit, of course, would be that any Valium you replace with kava..would help decrease the amount of physical addiction you acquire from frequent benzodiazepine usage.
Combining the two would probably lead toward sloppy-blackoutville.

 

[Bert07]

To answer your main question, you'll be fine. Only in rare cases would there be an issue, and yet you can say that about most other things in life. I've said this before but I've taken xanax and kava both on the same days with no problems whatsoever. But, and I've discovered this not too long ago, that whenever on a particular day I take xanax say in the beginning of the day and that night I have a kava session...kava's effects aren't nearly as pronounced as how they normally are when taken on a day without any benzo use. I actually never do it anymore primarily because of this. It's a waste of kava for me, but for you it could be different..there's no way of telling. It most likely has to do with the benzo taking action on the same receptors as kava does and afterwards creating a sort of cross tolerance to the kava. I'm sure infraredz can enlighten us with the specifics.

edit: @Ouroboros, I think there is a fine line between a reference of drugs taken for recreational purposes and ones that are prescribed for illness, especially in concern to their interactions with kava.

 

[yepimonfire]

I don't have any facts to back this up, but, I'm guessing it wouldn't be that bad. Especially if you're letting the Valium wear off 1st...plus 2mg really is a pretty low dose for Valium. Valium does have a longer half-life though, compared to Xanax...so it might be possible that your body is still processing the Valium even though you feel as if it's worn off. Probably not great to do, especially on a daily basis...but if there were a serious acute danger to it, I feel like that info would be out there already. One benefit, of course, would be that any Valium you replace with kava..would help decrease the amount of physical addiction you acquire from frequent benzodiazepine usage.
Combing the two would probably lead toward sloppy-blackoutville.

unfortunately, this would require me drinking kava throughout the day. I would be waaayyy too lazy to get anything done lol.

 

[yepimonfire]

To answer your main question, you'll be fine. Only in rare cases would there be an issue, and yet you can say that about most other things in life. I've said this before but I've taken xanax and kava both on the same days with no problems whatsoever. But, and I've discovered this not too long ago, that whenever on a particular day I take xanax say in the beginning of the day and that night I have a kava session...kava's effects aren't nearly as pronounced as how they normally are when taken on a day without any benzo use. I actually never do it anymore primarily because of this. It's a waste of kava for me, but for you it could be different..there's no way of telling. It most likely has to do with the benzo taking action on the same receptors as kava does and afterwards creating a sort of cross tolerance to the kava. I'm sure infraredz can enlighten us with the specifics.

edit: @Ouroboros, I think there is a fine line between a reference of drugs taken for recreational purposes and ones that are prescribed for illness, especially in concern to their interactions with kava.

as far as i know kava usage potentiates gabaergic transmission by upregulating gaba even when off kava. ive used phenibut with kava multiple times. it works way better following a recent kava session. even once the kava has long worn off.

 

[infraredz]

To answer your main question, you'll be fine. Only in rare cases would there be an issue, and yet you can say that about most other things in life. I've said this before but I've taken xanax and kava both on the same days with no problems whatsoever. But, and I've discovered this not too long ago, that whenever on a particular day I take xanax say in the beginning of the day and that night I have a kava session...kava's effects aren't nearly as pronounced as how they normally are when taken on a day without any benzo use. I actually never do it anymore primarily because of this. It's a waste of kava for me, but for you it could be different..there's no way of telling. It most likely has to do with the benzo taking action on the same receptors as kava does and afterwards creating a sort of cross tolerance to the kava. I'm sure infraredz can enlighten us with the specifics.

While diazepam itself has a somewhat short half-life, its biphasic half life is very long due to desmethyldiazepam (aka nordiazepam, one of the main active metabolites) which has a half-life of up to 200hrs. Additionally, because of the accumulation of diazepam in various adipose tissue, continued dosing will result in far higher concentrations than one might have with a single dose. Because diazepam is metabolized by CYP 2C19 into nordiazepam, concurrent administration with a CYP 2C19 inhibitor will decrease the plasma levels of nordiazepam (due to inhibition of the metabolic pathway from diazepam to nordiazepam) but, due to the high levels of nordiazepam in the body, taking an extensive CYP inhibitor (like kava) would increase the levels of nordiazepam, possibly in a clinically significant way. That is really the issue. Whether the effects of the inhibition of diazepam→nordiazepam offsets the effect of the inhibition of nordiazepam→inactive metabolites I can't tell but I would proceed with caution.

Basically, the effective half-life is much linger than what it seems.

 

[infraredz]

I used to take lorazepam and kava concurrently earlier this year, and anecdotal evidence suggests it wasn't a problem.

There are two main "classes" of benzos depending on their metabolic pathway, those that are metabolized by CYP450 (more potential for interaction) and those that are metabolized through glucuronidation (less potential for interactions). Lorazepam is an example of a benzodiazepine that is metabolized through glucuronidation and therefore has much lower potential for pharmacological interactions.

Diazepam and alprazolam are in the 1st "class".

 

[infraredz]

Long story short, my last run of meds didnt work so now i am taking valium, instead of taking valium in the evening (once the dose wear off of course), id rather drink kava as it works better and leads to more restful sleep. I know one guy here does this with xanax and is okay, what do you think? I have taken several other meds metabolized by the enzymes in question (including vicodin when i blew my knee out) with no issues.

Also, it's worth mentioning that diazepam (and its active metabolites) exert their effect for a duration far longer than what you may "feel".

Just for future reference, I would recommend against taking hydrocodone/acetaminophen drugs because of the acetaminophen being significantly taxing on the liver. Also, just so you know, it is metabolized by CYP2D6 into hydromorphone (a much more potent μ-opioid agonist) and therefore your experience isn't really a valid comparison since you essentially decreased the opioid effect the hydrocodone would have had compared to, say, an ultra-rapid CYP2D6 metabolizer.

In addition, you are taking a pretty low dose of diazepam so I wouldn't be as worried as I would if you were taking 60mg/day (like I was for a while) but I would still proceed with caution.

 

[Bert07]

Hey infraredz, just curious..are you a med/pharm student, or do you just have an interest and read up on all of this stuff? You seem more than knowledgeable in these types of discussions. Either way, great info man.

 

[infraredz]

Both

 

[hitsuzen]

Man, I was on a high dose of diazepam for quite a while. Took forever to taper off that stuff. And those metabolites have a ridiculous half life. I tested positive for benzos on an employment screen... 6 weeks after my last dose.

 

[Bert07]

Nice, I was looking into becoming a Pharm.D but schools are just way too competitive nowadays, let alone trying maintain a decent enough GPA with the heavy course load. Good luck to you. (Sorry for going off topic here)

 

[infraredz]

They are and the costs are just going up. I'm thinking of just becoming a PA or maybe a NPR since med school is just ridiculous in pretty much every way.

I have a friend who had two cousins, one went in a 2yr RN program at a community college and the other became an MD. After 15 years, the nurse had over $200,000 (taking debt into account) over the MD. Even going the 2yr RN route can give you quite the comfortable income (starting at ~80,000/year where I live)

 

[violet]

MD/PhD programs are usually full boat with stipend, competitive but not impossible to get into, especially if you can get undergrad research experience. I don't think there are many people that go into research for the money, though.

 

[Bert07]

Drinking kava throughout the day wouldn't work without going on a hunger strike. I'm never hungry for the few hours after I drink and we all know not eating for a few hours prior is necessary for maximum effect-or any effect for that matter-on top of it all. Not a good idea for me..I don't see how some of you can work it into your eating schedule without it jeopardizing trying to maintain a proper diet.

 

[yepimonfire]

Kava gives me insane munchies, also, no longer using valium, made me shake terribly with extreme/exhaustion depression.

Phenibut combined with kava seems to be giving me daily anxiety relief, as the kava extends a night of phenibut well into the next day by apparently interfering with its metabolism. Don't like having to use any gabaergic, and I know I will face dependency problems, buy alas, I must find a way to function, and this works.

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[Deleted User01]

I agree with Deleted User on the dosing but we are both daytime drinkers so it makes sense for us. I tried using Kava in the morning and afternoon but that turned out to be a bad idea. I take a cat nap after lunch and it's hell getting back in gear if I had morning Kava. So perhaps Yepimonfire may need something other than Kava in the morning like he suggested. Also, I do the high Kavain types and I don't feel lazy and I actually feel energized because it erases the doldrums I get in the afternoon. But morning is probably still problematic. Hey Yepimonfire, you gonna start hoarding again? lol.