Kava Causing Depression? Revisited

[Chaucer]

Just want to follow up to an earlier thread where a member mentioned feeling depressed shortly after taking Kava and asked if others had ever experienced this. I replied that I had not but, lo and behold, about a week later, at the beginning of last week, I had two heavy kavas on consecutive days (nene and Papa Kea) and did feel depressed shortly thereafter and had it stay with me throughout the day. On both occasions I felt a heaviness in my upper back and shoulders and just a general feeling of being in the dumps. This was my first time ever having heavy kavas and so I thought that perhaps I am particularly susceptible to these. Today, however, I am experiencing this again after having Heady kavas - 4 tbs of Pouni Ono and 2 tbs of Loa Waka (not all at once but spread over a few hours). This was my first time with Pouni Ono but I've had Loa Waka quite a bit without similar effects. On both occasions this occurred after a weekend of not taking kava and drinking alcohol instead. Last drink was about 12 hours before this morning's kava. While drinking alcohol, I noticed a similar depressed feeling. Also, the 4 tbs of Pouni Ono had very minimal effects which is unusual for me after a 12 hour overnight fast. No euphoric feelings - just a little spaciness that was at best neutral in feeling. I'm wondering if the kava is somehow potentiating the alcohol's depressant qualities or if I am experiencing RT after a three day break and a non-kava related depression is just kicking in. Although I'm generally not depressed - just anxious. Also, in general I have noticed that the kava I consume on Monday is never quite as effective as Thursday's so I am starting to believe that RT is a real thing and that it can ramp up with just a few days off the root.

I'm going to stick with the Pouni Ono for a few days as I've heard that it is quite strong and hope that whatever is going down with me turns in a brighter direction. Anyway, just sharing in case anyone else is experiencing this.

 

[Edward]

I regularly switch from kava to alcohol and back although not on the same day. I have noticed some depression type feelings but then I can sometimes feel that anyway... like a sort of dysphoria. I took it to be the kava helping me to process certain memories, etc and it never sticks around for long. I get some other weird side effects like not quite hallucinations but quite "vivid thoughts" while trying to get to sleep. Hard to explain but very real and often a bit scary like imagining monsters under the bed, etc. It's strange stuff but I think it helps you to deal with things and move on.

 

[EQ]

Emotions can quickly turn and change.
Technically to be clinically diagnosed as depressed you have to have symptoms for 2 weeks.

Kava doesn't turn a happy person depressed. Maybe you arent depressed but the low energy from a comedown can push you into it easier.

I am highly prone to depression and can say without a doubt Kava helps.

If you feel drained in the mornings try yoga or Mate. I do both. Think positive. Keep the spirit uplifted. Maybe a Kava break is needed. Abstaining and doing some inner workings is always healthy.

I think I described experiences in the past with meditation bringing great anger out. Meditation doesn't cause depression as Cannabis, and Alcohol do not aswell. All those drugs being pointed out to cause depression.

When I eat to much food I feel like crap and laydown for an hour because the energy loss of digestion is awful. Doesn't mean food causes depression. Why did I eat so much food? Stuffing my face in times of low can initially bring distraction to a problem but in the end after the food coma I need to get my shit together.

You asked if Kava could be potentiating the Alcohol's depressant effects? I only find massive mood upliftment with alcohol. It is labeled as a depressant drug and what that means in pharmacology is it slows down body functions. It has nothing to do with emotions. Most depressants have a sedative quality. Alcohol is toxic to the body and chronic use will lead to no good.

We always have an inner state and inner conflictions with ourselves, our relationship with this world and society, and really it is a never ending battle to find peace of mind, liberation, and purpose. If somebody nevers goes through low states than they are not human.

Depression isn't a purposeless state. The only advice I can truely say is to be completly honest with yourself and push for a life you want to live in every aspect.

Hope that didn't sound like nonsense. Hope you can establish good with Kava.

@Edward I know exactly what you are talking about.

 

[Kojo Douglas]

There is certainly a kind of depression that can come along with a Kava hangover. If you drink some Tudei roots and make a party out of it, you might get some serious bummed out feelings the following day.

Unfortunately, I've never known how to anticipate this or prevent it. I've had Wow! floor me and been serene the next day, and I've had PK Hawaiian blast me off and make me feel like a sack of beans the next day.

So there is something to Kava bringing one's mood to a low level, but not over the long term. If you find a correlation there, you should probably give Kava a rest and see if that works.

 

[EQ]

There is certainly a kind of depression that can come along with a Kava hangover. If you drink some Tudei roots and make a party out of it, you might get some serious bummed out feelings the following day.

Unfortunately, I've never known how to anticipate this or prevent it. I've had Wow! floor me and been serene the next day, and I've had PK Hawaiian blast me off and make me feel like a sack of beans the next day.

So there is something to Kava bringing one's mood to a low level, but not over the long term. If you find a correlation there, you should probably give Kava a rest and see if that works.

Completely agree.
We have to seperate depression from a day of being bummy.

Depression is a serious illness and the statement that kava ALONE causes depression is a big one.

I think the word depression is thrown around too lightly.

Once people start talking about quitting their jobs and staying in bed for a month from Kava use ALONE then we will have to start analyzing the safety of it.

 

[Chaucer]

Ok, I don't want to quibble about the clinical definition of depression so I will just say that I have had a few recent experiences of feeling pretty decent then drinking kava and having a feeling akin to despair shortly thereafter. Not full blown, can't get out of bed, suicidal despair, but an unpleasant feeling accompanied with a tension in my back and shoulders. EQ, I appreciate your thoughtful response but I'm not sure that you are qualified to make categorical statements about the effects of kava (or alcohol) based solely on your own experiences. It is well accepted that alcohol affects people differently . . . might kava not do the same?

I have had some really good experiences with kava so these episodes have sort of caught me off guard, and in the interest of building a database of experiences, I thought it was worthwhile to share so that if there is a trend we can identify it. I also want to clarify that I never said that kava alone caused my depression. I offered a theory that it might have to do with the alcohol I drank the night before - another experience to document. In the interest of promoting healthy discussions, we need to be open to possible issues with kava consumption so that we can each figure out for ourselves what works and what doesn't.

 

[EQ]

I understand that. No harsh feeling meant. I appreciate this post.
It is strange that kava is effecting you in a negative way, and I hope it gets better.
Yes Kava effects everybody differently.

All I really meant in a brief statement is that it's normal to get into low moods. Maybe the kava is to blame directly maybe it isn't.
I was just meaning that there's a lot of stuff that goes on in our lives and if we wake up to a crap day feeling hungover we hit a low.
Keep us posted.

 

[EQ]

I haven't really drank alcohol since I started drinking Kava so I have no experience to think on the combination or Kava shortly after. If I were you I'd probably take a couple days break from Kava and booze and try out Kava afterwards.

 

[Mr. Kava]

I have had kava depression after heavy kavas many times.

For some reason, if I drink a lot of waka only kava, i get the depression. My solution now is to always mix in up to 50% lawena by volume to my powder. Only exception is if I know for sure that the vendor is using 50/50 or greater ratio of chips/roots.

 

[Chaucer]

I understand that. No harsh feeling meant. I appreciate this post.
It is strange that kava is effecting you in a negative way, and I hope it gets better.
Yes Kava effects everybody differently.

All I really meant in a brief statement is that it's normal to get into low moods. Maybe the kava is to blame directly maybe it isn't.
I was just meaning that there's a lot of stuff that goes on in our lives and if we wake up to a crap day feeling hungover we hit a low.
Keep us posted.

No worries . . . Again, I'm not 100% sure it is the kava or if it is some element of the kava (or just a coincidence). I also mentioned in my original post that I was experiencing what might be RT as well. Perhaps RT only affects some of the kavalactones such that the heavy ones are still affecting me while the heady ones are subject to RT? Not saying this is the case but I do feel like something is going on. Today is a different story. I have now had 3 heaping TBS of Pouni Ono over an hour and am feeling the effects. I was somewhat skeptical of RT but now am starting to become a believer. Edward has recently mentioned having a similar experience where he noted that the first day back on kava typically gives him weaker results. My alcohol consumption is limited to Fri, Sat and Sundays. Yesterday, monday morning, I switched back to kava after a 12 hour window from the previous night. From now on, I will skip the Monday morning session and wait until closer to 24 hours after alcohol.

 

[dino9832]

Speaking for myself, kava is really unpredictable. I've had mediocre, euphoria, blah, and blissful sessions. I've never really been able to lock things down.
I've tried using more, using less, different strains, empty stomach, full, drink it quick, slow, etc.. So far, it's been rather elusive trying to draw any concrete conclusions.

But! There was something that's been said on these forums that makes a lot of sense. Kava sessions are based on what you bring into them. I remember a trip to the coast with my family. I had the most awesome two day session ever! No tiredness either.

I think there's a lot in what @EQ had to say. You have to work on yourself. Get yourself to a good place. It's also important to explore the reasons why a person gets drunk or drinks a lot of kava as well. Some of us do it to relax and have a good time. Some people try to escape life. Escape feelings and things like that.
My experience has been that kava isn't real good on escaping. And, I'm not saying that's what you're doing. Just pointing this out as something I've found.

 

[ThePiper]

I get it from time to time too, and Hawaiian kavas cause the least problems. Bkh waka caused me problems too, so maybe it is a waka thing. For me its kind of a loss of motivation and pleasurable feelings. Its not horrible but its enough to affect my performance at work/school significantly. I would compare it to the feeling I get when I took my rx valium two days in a row but more gradual and less severe. Sapped the good vibes and creativity out of everything. Must be those pesky heavy lactones. Im taking a break now for that exact reason. Also for me its not so much following a session its more of a built up effect that remains constant until I take a day or two off. The good thing is that when I do take a break I get a renewed appreciation for my creativity and feel generally inspired. So the solution for me is to stick with light uplifting strains and to avoid drinking for more than two days in a row. This can be difficult because of anxiety and the awesomeness of kava though