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KT botanicals

kl.Cocos kava

Kava Curious
I've been scouring the Internet for an answer and I can't find it. Perhaps Tyler can answer it. Why is K@ if it is legal sold as not for human consumption? And at certain kava bars it's sold for consumption. What is the legality on that and do they need a sign that says not intended for human consumption? But if you put that up aren't you in a sense lying as you are selling it to someone.
 

The Kap'n

The Groggy Kaptain (40g)
KavaForums Founder
Well we stand corrected. I personally appreciate your efforts, and care that goes into your business. We definitely are not questioning your resolve, or your ability here. In fact I'm not even calling your business model into question. It would literally scare me to be in a business that with one swipe of a pen could be completely knocked out.



I didn't mean to incriminate your website however we are a Kava board which we attempt to try to be exclusively that. I'm not questioning the legality of your website either. I do however question the future of certain herbal products more akin to opium. We, or I choose to exercise reasonable caution when purchasing from sellers who sell other things, and we will warn people who visit here first looking for guidance. Your site sells herbs other than kava, and of course every visitor can make his or her own informed decision about the implications of this, but I choose to purchase from those sites which only cater to the kava community. There are numerous other boards on the internet for nearly every other herbal product you sell on your site. Honestly selling a variety makes complete business sense to me.



Online is an awful place to judge character, but from what I can tell you're a straight shooter. You care about your products and purity of your products. I appreciate that, as I'm sure your customers do as well.



We can't control who sells what, but we can choose who we purchase from.



I don't speak for everyone here, but the reason I choose to stay strictly kava is carrying over the respect for Doug (The Kavasseur) and his website which is exclusively kava. We don't want to turn into a drugforum or a bluelight and it is for this exact reason I choose not to patron from sellers which sell other products with kava.



It's seriously not personal. It's a principal of purpose here.



Quite honestly Tyler, if you were to set up a website which sold kava only. I'd buy from you.
 

August West

Kava Enthusiast
Since I started this thread, am i able to delete it? I am definitely glad tyler chimed in, and I respect what he does. He also does it with class and plays by the rules. He obviously believes in what he's doing, and i appreciate his proactivity, behind the scenes with the pencil pushing and such. Ultimately , i'm sick of the negative vibes here. I only wish tyler would have chimed in at the beginning. I wish we could just talk about his kava, and forget the questions about other products, (since this is a kava forum.) I feel he's doing a lot of good behind the scenes, that we don't know about. And I will sample his piper.

I also understand why the lounge has concerns with keeping the kava message pure, i'd hate to see this place turn into a bluelight or a shroomery.
 

The Kap'n

The Groggy Kaptain (40g)
KavaForums Founder
Word. I also apologize for jumping in so quickly. We've had a few sellers themselves promoting other herbs before and I guess I just pulled the trigger prematurely. I hope you'll stay. As well as Tyler, because we need all the resources for knowledge we can get.
 

Ed!

Kava Enthusiast
Wow, thanks for coming on the forum to defend your business, Tyler. That certainly helps shape my opinion of KT Botanicals. I can tell you're fighting pretty hard not to let your offense show too much, and I think that says something for your intentions.



As for me, I've never been into illegal substances so I'm pretty trusting on the issue either way. The one thing that does make me dubious is the "not for human consumption" line that you have on your site and on the packaging (that I got anyway). I think it's safe to say that no one here is buying kava to study it, we're going to consume that stuff. It does make me feel like I'm doing something shady when I see that, and it shouldn't.



With that said, I have consumed a good amount of your Super Van Epi and it's a top-rate kava (was drinking it last night actually). One of my favorites by far. I would certainly buy again once my giant bag runs out.
 

krunkedout

Kava Lover
I agree with kapm. And it's nothing personal at all. In fact, if I was in the market to buy other healing plants, kt is the first place I'd go. It's not that I see those plants as bad, it's that political lobbyist and most westerners do, and it is a shame that they see those plants the way they do, but unfortunately that's the way it goes. I didn't mean any disrespect to you or your business.
 

kl.TylerKTB

Kava Curious
Hello Kavasseurs,



I appreciate everyone's thoughtful consideration and fully understand your efforts to maintain a Kava-centric focus on this forum.  I could not agree more.  I am in full agreement with the sentiments that this board does not need to develop into another Bluelight, or Drugs forum. I could not agree more.  Unfortunately, this thread was starting to go that direction with talks of everything under the sun...except the Kava that I offer.  I hope that everyone understands that I haven't come to this board trying to sell you anything in the first place.  I haven't asked to be put on the supplier list nor have I planted the seed with any of your members to mention me or promote my products here, it just happened. It was the members of this community that pushed this thread towards a Bluelight type discussion, not me.  I understand that you have had a few knuckle heads who have viewed this board as a captive audience to promote things other than Kava.  Thats not why I'm here.  I'm here because I love Kava and there seemed to be some misconceptions about my business and my role in the distribution and preservation of culturally significant plants.  I am greatly appreciative for your receptiveness to my previous post and am glad to become better acquainted with this community.



To answer some questions that have been posed with regards to the advised or implied consumption / not for consumption marketing and labeling;



In order to market medicinal herbs for consumption, you must understand the Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act of 1994 - All of it.  This is no easy task and it has taken me literally 100's of hours of reading the thing and tens of thousands in Attorney fees to clarify ambiguous parts of the Act over the past decade.  Essentially anything that was not marketed as a food or dietary supplement prior to 1994 requires a NDI or a "New Dietary Ingredient" petition from the FDA before it can be brought to market and sold for consumption.  This requires unbelievable amounts of time, money, and sponsored research to prove that the product is "safe" by FDA standards.  Mind you, the FDA approves of fluoride and aspartame, but considers cereals and almonds drugs- Thats who we're dealing with.  They consider all herbs, powders, minerals, viatmins to fit the definition of a "Dietary Supplement" which are subject to this new set of regulations set forth in the DSHEA of 1994.  So, if a certain herb, was not marketed as a food or dietary supplement before 1994, it requires FDA approval to bring to market.  We all know that the FDA is not in the business of letting any herb compete with big Pharma, and will therefore not let any new herb or natural product that has any appreciable pharmacological effect come to market.  Ask a friend of ours, Dr. Leslie Taylor at Rain-Tree Nutrition about her experience with the FDA and the DSHEA.  Her plantation is literally down the road from ours in Peru.  This woman spent 4 years in medical school and 30 years writing the bible on amazonian medicine, had 60+ studies on each one of her herbs to support and confirm the therapeutic properties, but since none of them existed on the US market prior to 1994, the FDA shut her down.  Gone.  It was a great and tragic loss to the medicinal plant community to see her go.  Since she was the primary source for most amazonian herbs, many of the herbs that she offered are now unavailable.... except through guess who? Yours truly. Why? Because we are selling these exact herbs harvested from the same plantations by the same families, for legitimate research rather than dietary supplements, teas, or otherwise for consumption.



That is the short answer to it.  So as crazy as this might seem to some of you who are not in this industry, us vendors are caught in a pickle.  If we market certain herbs for consumption, then the FDA steps in and shuts your business down, and I don't mean your little eBay business, or your mom and pop shop, I mean industry Pioneers like Dr. Taylor.  On the other hand, if we market certain herbs without the "Biological Sample for Research, Not for Human Consumption," warning, then the FDA insists that we are implying that they are for consumption because, "What else are they for? On the internet there are reports of this plant being consumed for XYZ purposes.  This intended end usage causes this plant to be considered a new drug by FDA definition and therefore requires a new drug application and approval from FDA before it can be sold."  This statement is usually followed by threats of product and asset seizures, legal complications, and scorched Earth where your business used to be.  I know, I have countless certified letters from them with this exact wording.  Now on the other hand, if the plant is marketed as neither a food nor a drug, and its intended end usage is a biological specimen for legitimate research, the FDA does not have jurisdiction in the matter because unless it is Poison Oak, it presents no risk to human safety since it is not to be consumed in any way shape or form.  I have battled the FDA for years for the right to provide these important plants to people who wish to research them.  After tens of thousands in Attorney fees, hearings, certified letters, sit down lunches with commissioners etc., we have reached this amicable and bipartisan agreement that this is the only acceptable way that the FDA will allow these products to be marketed and sold; as biological specimens for the intended end use of legitimate research and not for consumption.  To get them to this point was truly a miracle and took several visits to our lab and a review of the HPLC and GC/MS results that we have performed on numerous plants for identification and isolation of constituents.



Its hardly a wink and nudge type thing. Its literally the only way that certain important medicinal plants can be made available to those who wish to exercise their od-given rights to work with medicinal plants in the US today.  The alternative to the not for consumption approach is quite simply that all new plants would be made commercially unavailable by FDA and other regulatory agencies until Big Pharma brings them to you in a side-effect ridden synthetic form, at 100 times the cost.  Don't you think I would love to present these plants in an overwhelmingly positive light, tell you everything that I know about these plants, cite my research, and present irrefutable evidence for plants curing tumors, leukemia, diabetes and other diseases.  I can't, I'd be following in the footsteps of Dr.Taylor and eventually suffer the same fate, and that does no one ANY good.  I'd rather do the well-informed A LOT of good by keeping them readily available.  By the way, in 2010 I warned Rain-Tree about the potential dangers of citing their research, making health claims on their products, and marketing new herbs for consumption without an NDI.  They thought that since they had an overwhelming amount of supporting research behind their products and that a licensed Doctor owned the company, that the FDA couldn't possibly take issue with their good intentions.  Unfortunately, their good intentions didn't stop FDA from simply detaining their sea containers of herbs indefinitely and bankrupting the company.  In the same vein, I am warning suppliers of Kava to be mindful of the claims that they are making while marketing their Kava.



So believe me, I hear your concerns regarding the labeling of some of these plants.  Know that it is the ONLY way that these plants remain available within the US and its not some clever marketing scheme that I have come up with to push the envelope.  If there was another way, I'd be doing it.



Anyone selling "other" herbs at their kava bars as prepared beverages are technically selling them as a prepared food item which is a clear NDI violation.  If it is sold in capsule form, it implies consumption which is also a clear NDI violation.  This "other" herb was NEVER marketed before 1994 which is why it cannot be put into dietary supplements or sold as a food or dietary ingredient without an NDI petition to the FDA, which I can guarantee will be denied after thousands have been spent proving safety and efficacy.  I should know.  I have already tried, as have many others.  To sum up, I don't believe its legal to sell as a tea or a supplement.  Those who are doing so are operating at the grace, ignorance, or perhaps incredibly slow response time of the FDA and its simply a matter of time.



This is the sort of expertise that I bring to the table.  



I'd like to re-itterate, that I'm not here to sell you anything, simply to contribute my inside knowledge of the industry.



If the effort is to keep this board focused on Kava, then lets do it, you won't hear a peep from me about any other herb nor will I promote anything to anyone in my discussions.



If someone likes my Kava here.... can't they just like my Kava?  Ahaha I mean, is that unreasonable?  On the other hand, if I have sub-par quality Kava, go for it, let me have it.  I don't want a supplier thread titled KTB, thats not why I am here.  But to discourage people from honestly inquiring, discussing, or reviewing different company's Kavas, doesn't that somewhat defeat the purpose of this community?



Thank you all.



-T
 

kl.KarmaG

Kava Enthusiast
Another excellent post, Tyler. What year was kava first marketed in the US as a food/dietary supplement? What level of evidence is needed to prove that an herb/natural supplement was marketed prior to 1994? Is it like patent research? Do you need to prove that sale was widespread or would it be acceptable that Jim who once managed Jim and Dora's Herbal Supps Shop in small town USA was one of the only sellers? This would seem to be very difficult to prove. Do people even keep records for that long? Thanks for sharing your insight into the nitty gritty politics of this matter.
 

Ed!

Kava Enthusiast
I hope you stick around for a while, Tyler. I get the feeling that you have a lot of good knowledge to share.



I can understand the hoops. It's like home poker games vs. an establishment hosting a poker event. A home game is technically not legal some states, but it's small enough that no one is going to come breaking down your door for it. As soon as you reach a certain scale though it's a big criminal act.



So Tyler, I've obviously tried the Super Van Epi and was a big fan. Do you have any other strong ones or would you say that's the strongest of your kavas?
 

kl.TylerKTB

Kava Curious
Thank you Ed, as I've promised, I'm not going to promote here, email me at [email protected] and I will be happy to talk with you.



Thank you to the other Kavasseurs here who have chimed in as well.  I'm glad we're all able to have shared our prerogatives in a civil and tactful way. Well done - Go team!



Karma G, I wrote a lengthy explanation on this that contains some of the answers to your questions not too long ago.  I was contracted as a consultant by a Kava bar owner who was experiencing importation issues with the FDA due to the negative attention that some of the bars in South Florida were attracting.  The FDA attempted to classify the prepared beverage as a Dietary Supplement and advised the bar owner that his beverages were exceeding the FDA's maximum daily recommended dosage of Kavalactones and as such they had detained his shipments pending further review.  The following excerpt from my copyrighted work has had all names and addresses removed:



.................................................

Recently, the FDA has made an attempt to stifle the serving of Kava Kava at Kava bars, restaurants, and health bars by telling bar owners that they consider kava to be a dietary supplement and therefore it is subject to the regulations set forth in the Dietary Health and Education Act of 1994.  The FDA argues that since it is not a traditional part of the American diet prior to 1994, that it falls under the DHSEA regulations which classify Kava as a Dietary Supplement rather than a traditional food (beverage).



There are several issues with the FDA’s position.  First, Kava has a 3,000 year history of use in Polynesian culture.  There are over 1.5 Million people of Polynesian heritage living within the United States a large population of who have been drinking Kava since their major migration in the 1950’s.  In fact, the last state to be added to the union was Hawaii in 1959; an island with nearly ½ million Polynesians who regularly drank, and continue to drink Kava as part of their diet and culture.  Hawaii was added to the Union in 1959, and as such, if there was any doubt about Kava being a regular part of the American diet as a food or beverage, a few hundred thousand Kava drinkers became Americans that year.  Thus, Kava is clearly grandfathered in under the 1994 DHSEA as a traditional beverage (food) and is therefore not a dietary supplement or a new dietary ingredient and thus not subject to Dietary Supplement regulations such as the FDA's maximum recommended daily dose of Kavalactones.



Kava was recognized not only as a food long before 1994, but also as a medicine in the most prominent medical compendium of its time, the King’s American Dispensatory, published in 1898 by Harvey Wickes Felter, M.D., and John Uri Lloyd, Phr. M., Ph. D.  If the FDA does not wish to recognize the Kings American Dispensatory as an official medical authority, then it can surely find Kava in part 2 of the 1950 official American Dispensatory under Ganosan and Neurocardin.



The FDA’s attempt  to classify the traditionally prepared beverage Kava Kava as a dietary supplement is an attempt to impose Kavalactone limitations and labeling requirements in a similar manner to dietary supplements in order to negatively impact the establishments revenue generating ability.  For the following reasons, traditionally prepared Kava as it is served in this establishment does not meet the FDA's own criteria to classify it as a Dietary Supplement.



From the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act (FD&C; Act)

Section 321



(ff) The term "dietary supplement"—



(1) means a product (other than tobacco) intended to supplement the diet that bears or

contains one or more of the following dietary ingredients:

(A) a vitamin;

(B) a mineral;

(C) an herb or other botanical;

(D) an amino acid;

(E) a dietary substance for use by man to supplement the diet by increasing the total dietary

intake; or

(F) a concentrate, metabolite, constituent, extract, or combination of any ingredient described

in clause (A), (B), (C), (D), or (E);



AND



(2) means a product that—

(A)(i) is intended for ingestion in a form described in section 411(c)(1)(B)(i); or

(ii) complies with section 411(c)(1)(B)(ii);

(B) is not represented for use as a conventional food or as a sole item of a meal or the diet;

and

(C) is labeled as a dietary supplement; and



AND



(3) does—

(A) include an article that is approved as a new drug under section 505 or licensed as a

biologic under section 351 of the Public Health Service Act (42 U.S.C. 262) and was, prior to

such approval, certification, or license, marketed as a dietary supplement or as a food unless

the Secretary has issued a regulation, after notice and comment, finding that the article, when

used as or in a dietary supplement under the conditions of use and dosages set forth in the

labeling for such dietary supplement, is unlawful under section 402(f); and

(B) not include—

(i) an article that is approved as a new drug under section 505, certified as an antibiotic under

section 507 7, or licensed as a biologic under section 351 of the Public Health Service Act (42

U.S.C. 262), or

(ii) an article authorized for investigation as a new drug, antibiotic, or biological for which

substantial clinical investigations have been instituted and for which the existence of such

investigations has been made public, which was not before such approval, certification,

licensing, or authorization marketed as a dietary supplement or as a food unless the Secretary,

in the Secretary's discretion, has issued would be lawful under this Act.

Except for purposes of section 201(g), a dietary supplement shall be deemed to be a food

within the meaning of this Act.



Analysis:

For traditionally prepared Kava to fall under the FDA’s dietary supplement regulations, including labeling requirements and Kavalactone limits, it must first clearly meet the FDA’s definition of a dietary supplement.  To meet the FDA’s definition it must meet all three sections.  The following analyzes the traditionally prepared form of Kava as it pertains to these three sections.



Section 1

Kava is a botanical and therefore meets the criteria for section 1c.  



Section 2

Kava does not meet the criteria for section 2b if it is represented for use as a conventional food, such as a traditional Polynesian tea served in an open (unsealed) container such as a cup or bowl.  Kava’s on-site preparation, its representation as a “tea” and its open and unsealed container servings, meets the definition of a conventional food, rather than a dietary supplement.  Furthermore, Kava has the following nutritional value:  The majority of dried kava root is comprised of carbohydrates of which 40% is starch, 20% fiber, 3% simple sugars, 3.5% protein and 3.5% minerals. The remaining 30% of dried Kava root is comprised of fats and resins, which include the active constituents, Kavalactones.  Therefore, it is clear that Kava roots have significant caloric and nutritional value as a conventional food item and if served as such, it does not meet the FDA definition of a dietary supplement under this section.



While the traditionally prepared Kava beverage has already been shown exempt under section 2, Section 3 will be analyzed for thoroughness below.



Section 3

Section 3(ii) states that the definition of a dietary supplement does not include “…an article authorized for investigation as a new drug, antibiotic, or biological for which substantial clinical investigations have been instituted…”.  There have been many pharmaceutical preparations of Kava over the years which include LI 150®, WS1490®, that have been patented for use in clinical applications as listed below.  Furthermore, these substantial clinical investigations have been made public under the following prestigious journals, thereby fulfilling the definition of Section 3bii in its entirety:



Effect of a special kava extract in patients with anxiety-, tension-, and excitation states of non-psychotic genesis. Double blind study with placebos over 4 weeks  (PMID:1930344)

Journal of Phytomedicine -Volume 10, Supplement 4, 2003, Pages 38–49



Kava-Kava extract LI 150 is as effective as Opipramol and Buspirone in Generalised Anxiety Disorder – An 8-week randomized, double-blind multi-centre clinical trial in 129 out-patients.  Journal of Phytomedicine - Volume 10, Supplement 4, 2003, Pages 38–49



Corrigendum to “Clinical efficacy of kava extract WS® 1490 in sleep disturbances associated with anxiety disorders. Results of a multicenter, randomized, placebo-controlled, double-blind clinical trial” [J. Affect. Disord. 78 (2004) 101–110]

Journal of Affective Disorders, Volume 83, Issues 2–3, December 2004, Page 287



For the purpose of this analysis, Kava’s application as an investigational drug under section 3 is irrelevant, though it is important to note an alternate classification for Kava such that it may be represented in a manner that exempts it from the FDA's definition of a dietary supplement.

The FDA’s definition of a dietary supplement under the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act (FD&C; Act) Section 321 SS 2B is clear and traditionally prepared Kava beverages clearly do not meet the FDA’s definition.  The representation of Kava as a traditional Polynesian Tea qualifies it as a conventional food item rather than a dietary supplement Therefore, when Kava is served in its traditionally prepared beverage form in an open container, it is not subject to the FDA’s labeling and proposed Kavalactone limitations that are imposed upon Kava Kava containing dietary supplements.  



Copyright Tyler Blythe 2011

.........................................



After 3 months of deliberation, the Kava was released.



When did Kava first become a part of the American diet?

In 1959 when Kava drinking Hawaiians officially became citizens of the US.



When did Kava first become recognized as a medicine in the US?

Officially in the second part of the 1950 American Dispensatory, perhaps even earlier.  its listed under Neurocardin and Ganosan  Although the King's American Dispensatory lists it in 1898.



When did Kava first become a Dietary Supplement? 

When the FDA made up the term "Dietary Supplement" in 1994 and began to enforce strict regulations on herbs and their marketing.



To answer your other question:

The FDA typically wants to see documented marketing material.  A newspaper or magazine advertisement for the herb, the original packaging, an invoice for the herb with a date before 1994.  They won't simply take a shop owner's word for it without physical documentation.  I have tried. =)
 

Paradise Kava

Honolulu, HI
Kava Vendor
Welcome! We don't mess around Tyler ;)

I recall from our lunch how much the Man has messed with you, perhaps resulting in your acquisition of so much legal know how about natural medicine. I thought I had problems, till I met you :)

Rock Steady, someday we'll see that Kava Association.

You know you've got my support there.

 - Adil Ghiasi

ps - Remember the Mushroom pills? Still want to try them. Hold on to them till I come back State Side (smiley: wink) Aloha to your lovely fam~
 

kl.KarmaG

Kava Enthusiast
Very enlightening. Thank you again for your detailed explanation. And of course, thank you for all of the work you do behind the scenes. I always had envisioned owning an herbal supplement shop would be fun, but it seems like a giant headache after reading your posts! Thanks again for everything!
 

kl.TylerKTB

Kava Curious
Hi Deleted User,



Unfortunately the shopping cart software that my site is set up on doesn't have the option to restrict products to states. I have a new cart being implemented as we speak which will look much more professional and convey a more serious research type theme. Its taking a while to convert all 7500 products in my catalog over ha. On the new site it will prevent you from even adding any restricted items to the cart. For the time being, if you do happen to order something thats restricted in your state, its refunded and the rest of your order is shipped. I appreciate your concern.



Adil, no kidding brother, tough crowd. Its good though, thats exactly who we need supporting Kava and the Association. Ill call you today, need some stuff and want to give you some stuff too =)



Karma, Headache doesn't even begin to describe it. The idea is to simply regulate every medicinal herb company out of business and pave the way for a Pharmaceutical only approach to medicine. This is especially scary to me because we are poised to have the government be the provider of healthcare, as well as the sole determining body as to what medicines are approved and disapproved, as well as the sole distributor of these medicines. In the meantime, they are working to shut down any potential competition by enforcing such strict regulations upon companies that it would take millions to comply with their requests. They want herbal manufacturers to comply with Pharmaceutical manufacturing processes which would add costs onto herbal medicines such that they are price comparable to Rx meds. On ore than one occasion I have blown the inspector's mind with simple reminders such as, "...you DO realize that this plant was just growing in the ground about 12 days ago.... as in, in the dirt. Now you would like everything that happens after I dig it up to be pharmaceutically sterile. Surely you see the lack of logic here don't you?" Meanwhile, if you go to a coffee plantation or coffee roaster, people are picking beans bare handed, drying them on rooftops, roasting them in garages 10 feet from the dirt, dogs running around, and packing the beans with no gloves or hair nets. Thats ok because its a "Raw agricultural commodity", not a dietary supplement. If you were to buy those beans in the bag and want to put them into a capsule to consume, now all of a sudden it becomes a dietary supplement and sterile procedures must be followed. You need an independent COA on the material which tests for everything under the sun, including microbiological testing, heavy metals, pesticides, plus a GMP facility to process the material, labeling requirements etc..
 

krunkedout

Kava Lover
Quick question to Mr. Tyler, is your business completely online or do you also have a physical store in CA? And also where are your kava bars located?
 
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