Noble Vs Tudei Kava - Megathread

[kasa_balavu]

I don't see what any of this has to do with the government taking our rights.

In your post immediately preceding that one:

Kava drinkers should have the right to buy the Kava they want

The government decides what you can and can't import, what you can and can't trade, and what you can and can't consume.

No hard feelings. Bula!

I wan't you to know that that goes both ways. I have nothing against you personally and regardless of your position on this one issue, respect you for your wider contributions to the kava industry and more importantly to kava culture in the US.
This tudei/noble issue is just kind of personal for me as I and my family and dozens of friends who hard kava farms in 2002 were hit hard by the European kava ban.

 

[Kojo Douglas]

I totally understand. Let's make sure that kind of misunderstanding never happens again by putting pressure on vendors that irresponsibly market Kava or mix in leaves, stems, and unsafe chemicals.

 

[Zac Imiola (Herbalist)]

Yeah this is the actual issue ... but I think it would be a good idea to seperate the two.. we should class tuedi on the wild kava side since it's technically a halfway point.. idk.. even proposing a different scientific name ??

 

[kastom_lif]

Wow this thread really IS mega. Just wanted to add this:

Traditionally, a kava grower would dig a stump, set the stems aside, and drink that night's kava from just that one stump. If the kava was no good, they'd let the stems rot. If the kava had the expected effects, they'd plant the stems. If the kava had unexpected but good effects, they might plant the stems as a new cultivar.

Somatic mutations can't be detected unless somebody drinks "one stump" kava like traditional farmers do. A whole truckload of un-tasted stumps is likely to have some variation that doesn't get detected.

So what I wonder is:

(1) Is somatic mutation enough to account for "partially adulterated" test results when using powdered kava sourced from many stumps?

(2) Does the orange color in an acetone test come from a "undesirable" kavalactone such as dihydromethysticin (DHM), or is it the result of some *other* substance characteristic of p. wichmannii kavas?

 

[Zac Imiola (Herbalist)]

I don't think they have pin pointed the exact chemical cause of the orange color.
And no I don't think that a somatic mutation in the batch of noble stumps would be considered an adulteration but rather a blend technically . Say if hiwa ended up in a batch then it wouldn't be adulterated in my opinion except in the idea of pure ness of strain but not tuedi. Unless somehow a noble strain ran backwards and became a tuedi some how magically. Or better yet dark magically hahaha

 

[kastom_lif]

Mutation is random. You're just as likely to get a "better" chemotype as you are to get a "worse" one. It took careful human selection over many generations of kava to go from wild kava to noble.

Unless somehow a noble strain ran backwards and became a tuedi some how magically. Or better yet dark magically hahaha

Tudei is nakaemas, for sure!

 

[verticity]

Wow this thread really IS mega. Just wanted to add this:

Traditionally, a kava grower would dig a stump, set the stems aside, and drink that night's kava from just that one stump. If the kava was no good, they'd let the stems rot. If the kava had the expected effects, they'd plant the stems. If the kava had unexpected but good effects, they might plant the stems as a new cultivar.

Somatic mutations can't be detected unless somebody drinks "one stump" kava like traditional farmers do. A whole truckload of un-tasted stumps is likely to have some variation that doesn't get detected.

So what I wonder is:

(1) Is somatic mutation enough to account for "partially adulterated" test results when using powdered kava sourced from many stumps?

(2) Does the orange color in an acetone test come from a "undesirable" kavalactone such as dihydromethysticin (DHM), or is it the result of some *other* substance characteristic of p. wichmannii kavas?

The orange in the acetone test does not correspond to any kavalactone. The kavalactones mostly do not absorb visible wavelengths, although some of them absorb a little above 400 nm which gives them a yellow appearance. No possible change in kavalactone profile could produce an orange color. Also, the orange color is not caused by flavokavains (FKA,B,C), although it has been proven to be correllated with FK/KL ratio. But the actual molecule or molecules that cause the orange coloration have not been identified (as far as I know)

I don't think a somatic mutation in one stump, even if noble could mutate into tudei, would be detectable as a 50% adulteration in a batch of a lot of stumps, and it is extremely unlikely that 50% of the stumps in a batch would have such an unusual mutation. But that is the kind of thing that was seen in adulterated samples: adulteration levels of greater than 25%.

 

[verticity]

I would think it extremely unlikely that a single mutation could could turn noble into tudei, also. This is because noble kava was created by a large number of selected mutations over time. It is pretty much impossible that the chain of mutations that created noble kava could be reversed in a single mutation. You know, because of entropy and whatnot. ("entropy and whatnot" is the scientific expression)

 

[verticity]

Oh, also, the chemical or chemicals that produce the orange are definitely present in abundance in wichmannii, like you said, due to the very dark color that wichmannii samples give in the test. So whatever it is seems to be a very good measurement of "wichmannii-ness"

 

[kastom_lif]

I like your science, Verticity.

 

[Kojo Douglas]

Wow this thread really IS mega. Just wanted to add this:

Traditionally, a kava grower would dig a stump, set the stems aside, and drink that night's kava from just that one stump. If the kava was no good, they'd let the stems rot. If the kava had the expected effects, they'd plant the stems. If the kava had unexpected but good effects, they might plant the stems as a new cultivar.

Somatic mutations can't be detected unless somebody drinks "one stump" kava like traditional farmers do. A whole truckload of un-tasted stumps is likely to have some variation that doesn't get detected.

So what I wonder is:

(1) Is somatic mutation enough to account for "partially adulterated" test results when using powdered kava sourced from many stumps?

(2) Does the orange color in an acetone test come from a "undesirable" kavalactone such as dihydromethysticin (DHM), or is it the result of some *other* substance characteristic of p. wichmannii kavas?

Brilliant!

I'm not going to jump back into this discussion in any substantial way, but it could be that the way we are classifying Tudei (the "True Kava" test) isn't consistent with how Tudei is classified in the Pacific Islands. It would be interesting to trace a Kava from the source, to the lab, to the shell. Then we could see how all parties felt about the classification.

 

[Alia]

I don't think they have pin pointed the exact chemical cause of the orange color.
And no I don't think that a somatic mutation in the batch of noble stumps would be considered an adulteration but rather a blend technically . Say if hiwa ended up in a batch then it wouldn't be adulterated in my opinion except in the idea of pure ness of strain but not tuedi. Unless somehow a noble strain ran backwards and became a tuedi some how magically. Or better yet dark magically hahaha

To follow-up with the orange color question - I had always assumed it was from flavokawins- more abundant in tudei? Or so I am lead to believe. Regardless, Lebot's recent study- Comparative Analysis of genetic variation in kava (Genome 58:1-11 (2015) concludes "...two-day(s) cultivars, unsuitable for consumption ..." . That said, and back to the orange question, here is a link to the book that shows macro lens view of Yangonin. I see it as Orange in color but maybe I am mistaken. The pic. is on page 20 and I think if you clink on the link, 1/2 of the book Hawaiian 'Awa- Views of an Ethnobotanical Treasure will download. It takes awhile.
http://www.awadevelopment.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/awabook-web-part-1-of-2.pdf

 

[Zac Imiola (Herbalist)]

They al look yellow to me personably

 

[Alia]

They al look yellow to me personably

I am glad to read your post re- yellow color because interpreting color is an issue with me. I hope others comment after looking at the picture and agree with you. This would make the orange acetone test more understandable.

 

[TheKavaSociety]

So what I wonder is:

(1) Is somatic mutation enough to account for "partially adulterated" test results when using powdered kava sourced from many stumps?

(2) Does the orange color in an acetone test come from a "undesirable" kavalactone such as dihydromethysticin (DHM), or is it the result of some *other* substance characteristic of p. wichmannii kavas?

The sudden genetic mutation "back to tudei" seems impossible considering the very significant difference between these cultivars in terms of their phytochemistry and the fact that such tudei-type cultivars have NEVER been observed outside of Vanuatu. Note that for instance in Fiji all local cultivars are clones of single genotype. I think it's the same in Tonga and Samoa and I wouldn't be surprised if the same was true for the Hawaiian cultivars.

The orange colour def doesn't come from DHM. I think it is linked to a yet unidentified molecule

 

[verticity]

To follow-up with the orange color question - I had always assumed it was from flavokawins- more abundant in tudei? Or so I am lead to believe. Regardless, Lebot's recent study- Comparative Analysis of genetic variation in kava (Genome 58:1-11 (2015) concludes "...two-day(s) cultivars, unsuitable for consumption ..." . That said, and back to the orange question, here is a link to the book that shows macro lens view of Yangonin. I see it as Orange in color but maybe I am mistaken. The pic. is on page 20 and I think if you clink on the link, 1/2 of the book Hawaiian 'Awa- Views of an Ethnobotanical Treasure will download. It takes awhile.
http://www.awadevelopment.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/awabook-web-part-1-of-2.pdf

DMY, Y and possibly K are yellow; the others are colorless (although I think K is actually supposed to be colorless: this may not be a pure sample)

 

[CactusKava]

Brilliant!

I'm not going to jump back into this discussion in any substantial way, but it could be that the way we are classifying Tudei (the "True Kava" test) isn't consistent with how Tudei is classified in the Pacific Islands. It would be interesting to trace a Kava from the source, to the lab, to the shell. Then we could see how all parties felt about the classification.

I agree with you, and have had discussions with others surrounding this. Prior to the scientific community getting involved, there were known types of kava that weren't often consumed, which were classified as tudei. You and I, as foreign consumers of the root, don't have:

A) The knowledge of each kava cultivar, its physical characteristics, and ultimately its effects
B) The ability to even have a sampling of the stem (to verify cultivar) since it's illegal to export

This problem is further compounded by how most folks in the US get their root, through wholesalers that lump all kava together, rather than organizing by each type. So since the traditional question of "Does this look like a tudei plant?" isn't possible through wholesale, there must be another way to identify what might be tudei.

I also agree with you that we don't fully understand the acetone test, but it is the best indicator we have so far to understand the effects one batch of kava would have over another. There's one particular answer that I have decided upon to ensure what root my customers ingest, and it's threefold:

1) Only work directly with the farmers that grow their own kava; Never wholesalers.
2) Only buy kava from farmers that know their crops and consider them noble-only.
3) Verify nobility through TrueKava's testing

It might behoove us to create an entirely different word for what TrueKava is really testing, rather than tudei. All I know though, is that the process with which I use to vet kava, including the acetone test, ensures quality kava that doesn't make people sick. It's a weird situation, man.

 

[verticity]

Here are the UV-VIS spectra of flavokavains and kavalactones:

The FKs absorb between 400-450 nm in the visible region so they would appear yellow, but the visible absorption of FKs does not extend as far to the red as the absorption seen in tudei samples. Here are spectra of tudei and noble samples, and you can see the "hump" that distinguishes tudei from noble extends well above 450 nm:

 

[Kojo Douglas]

Just wanted to add some thoughts on this, as I wrote them in another thread. I'll be steering away from this conversation until the impending updates come along. But as this concerns my thoughts on the Noble vrs. Tudei controversy, I thought I'd post it here:

My intent was two-fold:

1) I wanted to apologize for some knee-jerk insults I had lobbed, such as "True Kava is a scam."

2) I wanted to clarify that the current comments are not an isolated event, but rather part of a long unfolding story. My assertions remain that, a) Piper Methysticum is safe, whether it is Noble or Tudei, b) People deserve to know whether they are buying Noble or Tudei, c) Testing Kava should be encouraged to monitor the quality of Kava being sold, but the process of "certifying" it should be improved and more transparent, d) Vendors should not be blacklisted across the board for selling properly labeled Tudei, e) there are still big questions about how the testing is done (is one batch tested? is that batch always from the same farm(ers)? how does True Kava know that the sample they are sent represents all the Kava being sold with that label/name?) and f) very few vendors have benefitted from the True Kava labeling project, calling into question the fairness of the enterprise.

Basically, the sentiment behind some of my admittedly immature insults is couched in a long back-and-forth that started around 2012. So if people jump on to the forums and just see me post "True Kava is a scam" and then watch Chris, Deleted User01, and others lambast me, then they are not getting the whole story. And I think that's probably more or less how this has been playing out every time this comes up. Add on to that odd "new members" who ask very specific questions about 11 year waka or "where can I buy Tudei" and the whole thing becomes infuriating - which I suppose is the intention.

Finally, to suggest that I be banned for continuing to raise these questions seems to be the final frontier in selling this idea. I find that to be quite disturbing. But again, I am committed to not using any more immature language, and I also think it would be healthy for me to stay away from this issue until all these impending developments are realized.

Yours,

Kavasseur

 

[HeadHodge]

Here are the UV-VIS spectra of flavokavains and kavalactones:
View attachment 6367
The FKs absorb between 400-450 nm in the visible region so they would appear yellow, but the visible absorption of FKs does not extend as far to the red as the absorption seen in tudei samples. Here are spectra of tudei and noble samples, and you can see the "hump" that distinguishes tudei from noble extends well above 450 nm:
View attachment 6368

just saw this, any idea how lebot's spectro's were performed(so I can duplicate)?