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Rash after beer

kastom_lif

Kava Lover
There's a man who washes down before bed
To everyone he meets his skin is bright red
With every beer he takes another flush it makes
Odds are he won't feel so great tomorrow

Secret... Asian flush, secret Asian flush
 

PepperyPyrone

I'll have the pyrones with some pepper, please.
Quite a bump, but this is still quite a problem for me since I do still very much like to have at least 1 night out with friends a week and I don't want to give up beer completely, I still like it!
It seems so hit or miss though, sometimes I can have kava a day before I drink alcohol and get zero symptoms. Other times I may have had kava 2-3 days, then nothing for 2-3 days, then some alcohol and boom, red all over my back and shoulders, sometimes accompanied by migraine and feeling very hot.
I'm pretty sure it's related to histamine and I'm extremely sure it's related to kava since I never ever have any symptoms like this no matter how much I drink unless I have had kava within the near future (a week or so).
The question is, would an antihistamine before going out for a party help? Let's say one of the non sedating ones, like certizin etc. Or would it do more harm than good?
I don't think an antihistamine is the answer. I too have noticed this rash. I've been trying to figure it out for about a year now and have left many posts on this forum about my hypotheses from my research. Ethanol is metabolized by ethanol dehydrogenase and CYP 2E1 to make acetaldehyde, which is then metabolized by acetaldehyde dehydrogenase (ALDH2) to form acetate. First of all, I speculate that kava inhibits acetaldehyde dehydrogenase 2, if not many isoforms of this family of proteins. I think this leads to the build up of acetaldehyde in the system and the classic acetaldehyde toxicity rash (warm/hot, reddened face, neck and splotchy, spotted rash around the shoulders and chest and back, shallow breathing, headache, ocular pressure). If you had the genetic mutation ALDH2 *2 allele, one each from your mom and dad (homozygous, common in Asian ethnicity) then this rash reaction would occur anytime you drank a beer. The *2 mutation causes the ALDH enzyme not to work properly, therefore the buildup of acetaldehyde. Here's the catch, it doesn't happen all the time, as you have stated. This is because your ALDH2 gene does not have this *2 mutation, and even if you did have this mutation you could just be heterozygous (one normal copy and one *2), which is not as big a deal but can affect my hypothesis when combined with kava. There are quite a few known chemical inhibitors of ALDH2, and I think kava is obviously a reversible inhibitor. As stated in this thread, the drug disulfiram (Antabuse) is an ALDH2 inhibitor, and it causes this same reaction. What do you do when you see this reaction after having a beer? You don't drink anymore. It works, and kava does the same thing. The key to all this madness could be genetic, but could also be as simple as your diet. Research has shown that inducers of ALDH2 activity are found in cruciferous vegetables of the Brassicaceae family. Those food include cauliflower, cabbage, garden cress, bok choy, broccoli, Brussels sprouts and similar green leaf vegetables. Two of the known compounds are the anti-oxidants alpha-lipoic acid (of which you can buy in supplement form) and BITC (rich in papaya, a member of the isothiocyanates in cruciferous veggies). I eat a lot of cruciferous foods with dinner and I rarely have this rash, but when I do get it (rarely) if I am enjoying a beer after a nice Squanch session I have noted that my diet was low in cruciferous veggies. If my hypothesis is correct, if you eat a lot of cruciferous vegetables prior to drinking kava, and then you drink a beer or two, you should not get this acetaldehyde reaction rash. I'm sure there are plenty of other foods that could affect this. Keep a record of what you ate that day when you have the rash. You could also try taking the alpha-lipoic acid supplement prior to drinking kava. Now I know there is a lot of different types of protein inhibition binding, competition for binding sites, allosteric regulation, possibly an inhibitor preventing an inducer from binding or working based on conformational shapes of the active or inactive protein, but I am quite certain that diet plays a role in the randomness of this acetaldehyde reaction. If I had funding to do it, it would be easy to research in the lab both in vitro and cell culture. But I don't and I am not in a lab anymore, so I wish someone out there would research this. Anyway, if you add in a heterozygous ALDH *2 mutation (one normal and one mutated) on top of the kava, the rash could happen more often and more severely, without diet affecting it. Other mutations such as poor metabolism for CYP2E1 and possibly ethanol dehydrogenase could also play into this. We know kava inhibits 2E1 and it could also inhibit ethanol dehase, which would explain the higher sensitivity to the effects of alcohol (the reported synergy). But the rash has to be more downstream at the acetaldehyde level. Experiment. PM me if you figure anything out! It for sure is interesting. The best thing is to just keep the alcohol to a minimum when drinking kava. If you do happen to have a beer after kava and you feel warmth to your face, poor it down the drain. Most likely you are experiencing the early effects of building acetaldehyde prior to the rash. All of this is not proven and pure speculation based on my observations and literature research. BULA!
 

Zac Imiola (Herbalist)

Kava Connoisseur
Amazing post. I learned alot and agree that it's definitely a form of protein metabolism enzymes. I find I reduce kava side effects a lot when I eat meat and broccoli. A LOT OF broccoli .. it just feels like it's cleaning me and the heavy meat just feels like it activates the liver too as I'm a smaller man and don't eat as much as I should I think it gets my enzymes flowing then the broccoli helps
 

SelfBiasResistor

Persist for Resistance!
I don't think an antihistamine is the answer. I too have noticed this rash. I've been trying to figure it out for about a year now and have left many posts on this forum about my hypotheses from my research. Ethanol is metabolized by ethanol dehydrogenase and CYP 2E1 to make acetaldehyde, which is then metabolized by acetaldehyde dehydrogenase (ALDH2) to form acetate. First of all, I speculate that kava inhibits acetaldehyde dehydrogenase 2, if not many isoforms of this family of proteins. I think this leads to the build up of acetaldehyde in the system and the classic acetaldehyde toxicity rash (warm/hot, reddened face, neck and splotchy, spotted rash around the shoulders and chest and back, shallow breathing, headache, ocular pressure). If you had the genetic mutation ALDH2 *2 allele, one each from your mom and dad (homozygous, common in Asian ethnicity) then this rash reaction would occur anytime you drank a beer. The *2 mutation causes the ALDH enzyme not to work properly, therefore the buildup of acetaldehyde. Here's the catch, it doesn't happen all the time, as you have stated. This is because your ALDH2 gene does not have this *2 mutation, and even if you did have this mutation you could just be heterozygous (one normal copy and one *2), which is not as big a deal but can affect my hypothesis when combined with kava. There are quite a few known chemical inhibitors of ALDH2, and I think kava is obviously a reversible inhibitor. As stated in this thread, the drug disulfiram (Antabuse) is an ALDH2 inhibitor, and it causes this same reaction. What do you do when you see this reaction after having a beer? You don't drink anymore. It works, and kava does the same thing. The key to all this madness could be genetic, but could also be as simple as your diet. Research has shown that inducers of ALDH2 activity are found in cruciferous vegetables of the Brassicaceae family. Those food include cauliflower, cabbage, garden cress, bok choy, broccoli, Brussels sprouts and similar green leaf vegetables. Two of the known compounds are the anti-oxidants alpha-lipoic acid (of which you can buy in supplement form) and BITC (rich in papaya, a member of the isothiocyanates in cruciferous veggies). I eat a lot of cruciferous foods with dinner and I rarely have this rash, but when I do get it (rarely) if I am enjoying a beer after a nice Squanch session I have noted that my diet was low in cruciferous veggies. If my hypothesis is correct, if you eat a lot of cruciferous vegetables prior to drinking kava, and then you drink a beer or two, you should not get this acetaldehyde reaction rash. I'm sure there are plenty of other foods that could affect this. Keep a record of what you ate that day when you have the rash. You could also try taking the alpha-lipoic acid supplement prior to drinking kava. Now I know there is a lot of different types of protein inhibition binding, competition for binding sites, allosteric regulation, possibly an inhibitor preventing an inducer from binding or working based on conformational shapes of the active or inactive protein, but I am quite certain that diet plays a role in the randomness of this acetaldehyde reaction. If I had funding to do it, it would be easy to research in the lab both in vitro and cell culture. But I don't and I am not in a lab anymore, so I wish someone out there would research this. Anyway, if you add in a heterozygous ALDH *2 mutation (one normal and one mutated) on top of the kava, the rash could happen more often and more severely, without diet affecting it. Other mutations such as poor metabolism for CYP2E1 and possibly ethanol dehydrogenase could also play into this. We know kava inhibits 2E1 and it could also inhibit ethanol dehase, which would explain the higher sensitivity to the effects of alcohol (the reported synergy). But the rash has to be more downstream at the acetaldehyde level. Experiment. PM me if you figure anything out! It for sure is interesting. The best thing is to just keep the alcohol to a minimum when drinking kava. If you do happen to have a beer after kava and you feel warmth to your face, poor it down the drain. Most likely you are experiencing the early effects of building acetaldehyde prior to the rash. All of this is not proven and pure speculation based on my observations and literature research. BULA!
This is all very interesting. I've had the same thing happen sometimes but not all the time.
 

NIK0

Newbie
First time using kava today drank a few beers to test out how I react , face got hot as hell and had a weird mini panick attack where my heart was beating super fast and for 40 secs felt as if I was dying super weird , safe to say I just stopped after Those 2 beers and chilled . Kinda bummed I can’t drink kava and enjoy beers later in the day. With out that weird effect
 

Krunkie McKrunkface

Kava Connoisseur
First time using kava today drank a few beers to test out how I react , face got hot as hell and had a weird mini panick attack where my heart was beating super fast and for 40 secs felt as if I was dying super weird , safe to say I just stopped after Those 2 beers and chilled . Kinda bummed I can’t drink kava and enjoy beers later in the day. With out that weird effect
what I found back when I drank kava and still drank beer was that I coud still drink beer but I was limited to just one or two, as I got unpleasant effects if I tried having more.
 

Intrepidus_dux

Kava O.G.
No idea! Sure is interesting though.

Shortly after starting kava I became full on allergic to particular soaps and lotions. Is it kava related? Idk. I’d had reactions years before that on my hands to particular hand soaps.

The histamine overload idea is super interesting too. I’m not hip on this stuff but would like to see what others say. If you do try an antihistamine, maybe make sure it’s the non-drowsy type?
 

Kravatomill

Kava Curious
I don't think an antihistamine is the answer. (lots of text)
Wow, just saw this answer now. I've had a Kava break for a while, but just ordered some eva from cactuskava so time to see how it works out this time. Your hypothesis is very interesting, I will surely try both a diet of lots of green leafy vegetables during kava times and a few days after as well as alpha-lipoic acid as supplement. It seems BITC is more concentrated in unripe papaya than in ripe(?), which would be great since I live in Thailand and unripe papaya salad is quite a staple here.

I must confess I have pushed my way through the rash sometimes. By that I mean I didn't stop drinking, I did feel warm, shallow breath, pressure and red all over, but would cool myself down with more beer, I know it was most definitely never a smart choice and quite the opposite of listening to my body, but what I also noticed is that almost every time the rash would disappear an hour or two later and I would just continue drinking all night long.

I have never had these problems at all without Kava. I'm of Scandinavian/German decent and usually tolerate alcohol very well.
But it's time to slowly throw in the towel and realize those party days are more or less over cause binge drinking is not nearly as fun as it was when I was in my 20's. However, I do want to be able to have 2-3 beers on a Saturday with some friends without turning red, getting shallow breath, racing heart etc. So I guess a change in diet as well as making sure I had at least 24h in between Kava and alcohol (although sometimes it seemed I could tolerate alcohol better in the evening after a day time kava session, while still getting red if I had a couple of beers two days later. The body is a weird machine indeed)

Anyway, thanks!
 

Intrepidus_dux

Kava O.G.
Wow, just saw this answer now. I've had a Kava break for a while, but just ordered some eva from cactuskava so time to see how it works out this time. Your hypothesis is very interesting, I will surely try both a diet of lots of green leafy vegetables during kava times and a few days after as well as alpha-lipoic acid as supplement. It seems BITC is more concentrated in unripe papaya than in ripe(?), which would be great since I live in Thailand and unripe papaya salad is quite a staple here.

I must confess I have pushed my way through the rash sometimes. By that I mean I didn't stop drinking, I did feel warm, shallow breath, pressure and red all over, but would cool myself down with more beer, I know it was most definitely never a smart choice and quite the opposite of listening to my body, but what I also noticed is that almost every time the rash would disappear an hour or two later and I would just continue drinking all night long.

I have never had these problems at all without Kava. I'm of Scandinavian/German decent and usually tolerate alcohol very well.
But it's time to slowly throw in the towel and realize those party days are more or less over cause binge drinking is not nearly as fun as it was when I was in my 20's. However, I do want to be able to have 2-3 beers on a Saturday with some friends without turning red, getting shallow breath, racing heart etc. So I guess a change in diet as well as making sure I had at least 24h in between Kava and alcohol (although sometimes it seemed I could tolerate alcohol better in the evening after a day time kava session, while still getting red if I had a couple of beers two days later. The body is a weird machine indeed)

Anyway, thanks!
Leafy greens sure can’t hurt!
Let us know how it goes! :)
 

StoryStone

Newbie
I haven't encountered such a problem yet. I think a lot of beer and Kava is not for me, I do not want my body to suffer from this
 
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