Rash after beer

[shuman]

Hello, again. So last night against my better judgement i drank some beer at a BBQ. I think over the course of 4 hours or so i drank about 5. I was not intoxicated to the point of being woobly or embarassing.
I well aware of not mixing Kava and booze so last time i had kava was Friday.
Shortly after i got home i developed this crazy looking rash on my face and neck. Looked very much like an allergic reaction. Freaked out my wife. Today it is pretty much gone. Just wandering if anyone experienced something like that. What are the potential causes?
Thank you

 

[nhoeg]

I think what has happened to you was an alcohol-flush reaction (also called asian flush or asian glow). Maybe you have had an tendency to mild redness when drinking alcohol, and now kava makes it ten times worse. I don't know what the exact chemistry is about, but I will assume that it is some kinda cross-reaction in the liver between alcohol and the kava that is still present in your system.

I get the same reaction (very badly) when I drink alcohol - so I need to have at least 3 or even 4 days with no kava-consumption before going for the booze. In addition to the colorful rash on the face, I experience increased pulse and inner warmth, and kava is really the thing to blame for it. Because at periods when I do not drink kava at all, my alcohol flush reaction is minimal to almost non-existent. Going outside in the cold weather can also help al lot to cool down your face and help the vasodilation.

I will suggest that you try these supplements: Milk thistle and NAC. They minimize the redness a bit when drinking. But the best thing you can do, really, is to have a couple of days with zero kava before drinking alcohol.

 

[shuman]

Thanks for the reply.
I used to get flash face reaction when drinking in the past. You were right it was way worse on kava. My face and neck looked like it was hit with boiling water.
Very freaky.
I am going to get a break from kava and booz. I was concerned about liver damage though, since the rash was quite bad

 

[Zac Imiola (Herbalist)]

I wanna try milk thistle I've heard alot of good stuff

 

[shuman]

To you the truth i kind of got worried here. So at lunch i did do some search and i found this to be relatively common issue. Plus a few people mentioned that they had to stop kava completely due to skin inflammation issues.
I did a bit of research online before i decided to try kava and knew of potential dermatitis but this very unexpected and worrying.
Plus i did not consider myself a heavy user
I would use 3 4 times a week about half a cup of dried root. Sometimes a cup.
I am kind of worried re other potential issues. Very dissapointed as i thought it is going to workout.....

 

[Edward]

I've been known to be quite rash after drinking beer ;-) (sorry)

When I was younger I would get this quite often, red patches on my skin and I would feel very hot and a bit strange. Despite carrying on drinking for some reason it stopped happening but then a few weekends ago it happened for the first time in years. Whether it is related to my taking up the kava lifestyle 4 or 5 months or so ago I can't tell? I don't think it's anything to be too worried about unless it starts happening all the time. I wouldn't worry too much about your liver with kava either, plenty of people have posted blood test results and been fine after moderate to heavy kava use. Of course if you're at all unsure you should get your liver checked yourself.

@Mrbinx69 I used to take milk thistle all the time when I was drinking more but I never really found it made much difference to the way I felt so stopped taking it. It may or may not have been doing me any good but now I am 80% kava 20% booze I'm less worried about it anyway.

 

[shuman]

I have heard about milk thisle and it does appear to be useful in liver health from what i read online. I even found few studies where it was used to treat alcoholic hepatitis although results were mixed.
My issue here with as with any supplement you are taking a risk unless it has a drug monograph and most do not you are not sure that in that bottle you will find actual milk thisle in the amount it is listed.
Also it appears again from the articles i found online that the same liver enzime is involved in metabolizing kava and alcohol.
Obviously, this was not confirmed scientifically speaking.
Again the same enzyme is involved when you take milk thisle
Therefore i would be very careful in taking the two together.
Another thing i found which was interesting is idea that native inhabitants of pacific isl.
have somewhat different pathways / ways how they metabolize kava than folks of europian decent. Hense low side effect profile of kava use.
This hypothesis did check out as
some psych drugs are doses differently for that particular ethnographic group.
Again i am not a physician nor a naturopath so this is just articles and various posts i found online validity of course is questionable.
It would be great to hear input of an expert here because amount of conflicting information is overwhelming.

 

[Jonathan]

My opinion based on what you said would be some kind of allergic reaction to the beer, or perhaps a yeast/candida overgrowth. Forget the beer mate, stick with the root. Just my 2 cents...

 

[nhoeg]

I have heard about milk thisle and it does appear to be useful in liver health from what i read online. I even found few studies where it was used to treat alcoholic hepatitis although results were mixed.
My issue here with as with any supplement you are taking a risk unless it has a drug monograph and most do not you are not sure that in that bottle you will find actual milk thisle in the amount it is listed.
Also it appears again from the articles i found online that the same liver enzime is involved in metabolizing kava and alcohol.
Obviously, this was not confirmed scientifically speaking.
Again the same enzyme is involved when you take milk thisle
Therefore i would be very careful in taking the two together.
Another thing i found which was interesting is idea that native inhabitants of pacific isl.
have somewhat different pathways / ways how they metabolize kava than folks of europian decent. Hense low side effect profile of kava use.
This hypothesis did check out as
some psych drugs are doses differently for that particular ethnographic group.
Again i am not a physician nor a naturopath so this is just articles and various posts i found online validity of course is questionable.
It would be great to hear input of an expert here because amount of conflicting information is overwhelming.

I hear what you are saying. But I also think you have to be careful believing in everything you read online (that includes in here to!). One can go mad at all these crazy things all the different supplements apparently does to our bodies just by reading on the internet - I have been very bad to conclude on these things very easily aswell.

However I think you/we need to take kava and alcohol very serious, because these two really creates something bad when combined. Alcohol alone doesn't give me these symptoms nor does kava alone. But if I drink them both on the same week, things just looks and feels bad. In terms of drinking kava only, I am sticking to the very fact that the Pacific Islanders have been drinking this for thousands of years with no problems at all (other than some dermopathy, which is different from the liver-red-skin-issues).

In terms of alcohol alone, yea, we all know the bad things about that. I live in a very social and young environment at a kollegium while studying for college, so I have just accepted that alcohol IS a pretty big part of life these years. I just need to find the best way to drink kava in my life in a healthy manner - and it is kinda hard, if alcohol is on the schedule on a lot of weekends.

 

[nhoeg]

Another thing i found which was interesting is idea that native inhabitants of pacific isl.
have somewhat different pathways / ways how they metabolize kava than folks of europian decent. Hense low side effect profile of kava use.

Allright, I didn't see this one before posting the above. That is kinda interesting and something I have thought about. Do you have something more on this?

 

[Zac Imiola (Herbalist)]

It's the same thing with African Americans vs. Nordic ethnic groups with alcohol. A Harvard study found recently that Nordic groups (because they have been consuming alc. Longer than African Americans ) show less side effects and more benefits than African American. It's just evolution ... it doesn't stop. Its still happening every day to every species.and the human species( each unique culture) will adapt to its psychoactive of choice if given enough time. Making it safer and safer for them. This seems to be very much the case with pacific islanders and kava.

 

[shuman]

I agree with the comment re internet info i always try to find somewhat of a reliable source, however, that is not always possible. I cannot recall where exactly i got the info from different pathways of kava metabolism of pacific isl. but sort of recall it being in one of the journal articles discussing supposed kava liver failure cases. The author suggested that europianians who experienced adverse effects may have underlying genetic variance that makes them suceptible to adverse effects. Once again it is a hypothesis.
But one thing is certain that kava does interact with alcohol.
Perhaps it affects enzyme in liver that metabolizes alcohol because alcohol face flush occurs when this enzyme is low and cannot metabolize it. Interestigly, medication called anatabuse or something like that prescribed to treat alcoholism cause eery similar reaction when taken with alcohol.

 

[KavaCat]

I would blame neither the booze nor the kava! That does sound like a legitimate allergic reaction. You said you were at a BBQ, so you could have unknowingly run into any kind of plant or substance while you were out there. Heck, it could have even been a perfume someone was wearing, and when you hugged them, you got the perfume on you. I had a perfume recently that gave me the most horrible hives! It took me several weeks to realize it was the new perfume. This is just one of a thousand things that it could be, but the fact that it was on your face and neck only is a real tipoff that it was probably something that got on your skin. Many people go to the doctor, thinking they had an allergic reaction to food, but the doctor will point out that the rash is only on a part of your body that is normally exposed, such as the arms, legs, and face. But then there's no rash on the torso. Basically if you have a rash on a part that's exposed, and no rash on your other body parts, it's much more likely contact dermatitis.

 

[violet]

But one thing is certain that kava does interact with alcohol.
Perhaps it affects enzyme in liver that metabolizes alcohol because alcohol face flush occurs when this enzyme is low and cannot metabolize it. Interestigly, medication called anatabuse or something like that prescribed to treat alcoholism cause eery similar reaction when taken with alcohol.

I agree with this exactly. Kava is a strong inhibitor of certain enzyme pathways. If those pathways are unavailable to metabolize alcohol when it's imbibed, the body may react. In addition, alcohol, especially beer and wine, not only contains histamines but also histamine liberators, which cause the body to release it's own histamine.

So with alcohol you are getting a double whammy of histamine. What helps the body break down histamine? Enzyme pathways in the liver. If they are still inhibited from the kava the body is unable to keep up with the breakdown of excess histamine. Excess histamine causes flushing of the face, neck, and sometimes upper chest. It can also cause congestion, hives, headaches, and scores of other physical ailments that most poeple wouldn't recognize.

Histamine can take a while to break down and it is found in many, many staple foods. So if you happen to notice a lot more flushing with regular kava intake, you may want to look at what you're ingesting overall. The histamine intolerance was probably already there, but slowing down the liver enzymes combined with ingesting high histamine food/beverages made it noticeable.

 

[shuman]

I am pretty sure this was not an allergic reaction because I have found quite a few people that had similar effects, actually, in some cases identical. I have looked at some medical pictures of severe alcohol flush reaction-and it did in fact resemble mine 100 percent.
I just wanted to get this out there, that if you consume kava make sure you wait at least 3 to 5 days before you drink alcohol.
It does occur and if you are not familiar with the plant effects are rather scary at first.
I decided to try and avoid alcohol altogether while I try the Kava out.
I have started to get effects and they surprised me quite a bit. It takes time and patience to understand how it works with you. I am learning that now.

 

[August West]

My wife used to drink alcohol quite regularly and always got rosy cheeks. She now has one or two drinks maybe five times a year, and she turns absolutely beet red every time.

 

[The Kap'n]

I have started to get effects and they surprised me quite a bit. It takes time and patience to understand how it works with you. I am learning that now.

Kava has been one of those things you really have to listen for, but once you've heard it, it's quite loud.

 

[Ryanakamal]

can you elaborate on the rash? did it itch where there bumps like poison plants? ore more allergic reaction? (poisonplants i mean a kind of nettleplant, its sting gives similar results as mosquito stings)

 

[shuman]

Ok if you wikipedia alcohol flush reaction
There is a picture there of a back of asian male experiencing
Thats exactly what i had on my face and neck
Symptom wise i felt kind of hot but no itchiness or anything like that
My wife noticed it first

 

[Kravatomill]

Quite a bump, but this is still quite a problem for me since I do still very much like to have at least 1 night out with friends a week and I don't want to give up beer completely, I still like it!
It seems so hit or miss though, sometimes I can have kava a day before I drink alcohol and get zero symptoms. Other times I may have had kava 2-3 days, then nothing for 2-3 days, then some alcohol and boom, red all over my back and shoulders, sometimes accompanied by migraine and feeling very hot.
I'm pretty sure it's related to histamine and I'm extremely sure it's related to kava since I never ever have any symptoms like this no matter how much I drink unless I have had kava within the near future (a week or so).
The question is, would an antihistamine before going out for a party help? Let's say one of the non sedating ones, like certizin etc. Or would it do more harm than good?