A Call for a Truth and Reconciliation Discussion on the Noble vs. Tudei Controversy

[Kojo Douglas]

It has become clear that @Kavasseur loves to create contention and problems, he does not read these posts as he keeps asking the same questions, he bounces back and forth, he likes tudei then he does not like it, then he likes it again, then he does not like it again. After reading all of this in this thread most of the participants have valid concerns and are happy with talking about these things in a civil way but even though @Kavasseur may not be actually "uncivil" he has been problematic and he does not see the truth for some things when it is right in front of his face, for example he says he has in laws and friends in Hawaii and he knows from all these people that the local Hawaiians love Isa but that is just "NOT " true, as I said and I guess he did not read it, I have interviewed ever kava bar in Hawaii and I know many more people, kava farmers and kava drinkers here in Hawaii than @Kavasseur does so he can not say that what I am telling hhim is just not true and he did say that.
I think that it is time for this to stop, we have a tudei mega thread and we do not need to do this all over again. This is the trouble making that @kavassuer likes to do. I guess since he can't find any tudei kava, this is how he gets his jollies. Come on Kavassuer just stop it all ready, as we say here in Hawaii "nuff already" You have been totally wrong in "Most" everything you have said and you have been attacking Deleted User and TK labs. We all see the point but is is clear that you do not or you do but still like to cause problems. "STOP" "NUFF ALREADY"!!!!!
There are better things to do, like drinking our favorite kava, you go drink your tudei and enjoy getting sick and I will drink my favorite kava and love it. Aloha to all.

Chris

This is completely immature and asinine. I really thought you were better than this. To say "this is the trouble making that @Kavasseur likes to do" is just a childish and deplorable insult to me, to the people who have benefited from my reviews, and to the advocacy I have given to Kava for almost twenty years.

I think it is quite clear now how much you have benefitted from this arrangement with TK.

Do you know why this topic upsets you so much? Because it hits a nerve. You wouldn't be responding like this if it didn't. You have something to lose if the truth comes out. In your mind, you get a competitive advantage because you can completely control your product. You know Melanesians in Vanuatu lose from this, and that creates a huge market for you.

Your cover is blown.

Look, I'm a Kava review guy. I drink Kava and I blog about it. You're a vendor. It's a business for you. If you had nothing to lose here, you wouldn't be behaving this way.

I was looking for truth and reconciliation, and I got a face full of claws.

Peace,

Kavasseur

 

[Kojo Douglas]

@Kalm with Kava I thought you'd be an adult voice in this discussion. I really respect you a lot. Look, none of those quotes are examples of bullying. I can call into question the legitimacy of TK without being a bully. I'm not insulting anyone personally - even if I am calling their intentions into question. And yes, TK is a sticker factory. Isn't that the point - the labeling?

Peace,

Kavasseur

 

[Edward]

@Kavasseur I really don't get the point of all this. If you've got a personal beef with people it's probably better to do it by PM. I'm done with this thread.

 

[Kojo Douglas]

Where is Jonathan Yee in all this? He is one of the best Kava growers around and he doesn't get the time of day because he doesn't want to join the cartel? Seriously guys, something is fishy in Denmark.

 

[Kalm with Kava]

@Kalm with Kava I thought you'd be an adult voice in this discussion. I really respect you a lot. Look, none of those quotes are examples of bullying. I can call into question the legitimacy of TK without being a bully. I'm not insulting anyone personally - even if I am calling their intentions into question. And yes, TK is a sticker factory. Isn't that the point - the labeling?

Peace,

Kavasseur

I respect you too Kavasseur and I am honestly trying to see where you are bullied. The posts I referenced are insulting though to a man who has dedicated thousands of hours and dollars to trying to help this community. This has gotten completely out of hand as it usually does and it's really sad to see. I like it much more when we all get along and drink our grog together.

 

[Kojo Douglas]

@Kavasseur I really don't get the point of all this. If you've got a personal beef with people it's probably better to do it by PM. I'm done with this thread.

Well, there is a lot of history behind it. It's not personal beef with people on my end. I'm just trying to make public the fact that Kava drinkers are being taken for a ride. It's not really a private issue, it's more of an industry issue.

 

[Kojo Douglas]

I respect you too immensly Kavasseur and I am honestly trying to see where you are bullied. The posts I referenced are insulting though to a man who has dedicated thousands of hours and dollars to trying to help this community. This has gotten completely out of hand as it usually does and it's really sad to see. I like it much more when we all get along and drink our grog together.

Agreed. Bula!

And trust me, I'm not out to scandalize everyone associated with TK. I think everyone probably has good intentions. But the fall out has been a long time coming and I'm afraid of what it's doing to our community and to Kava itself.

 

[Edward]

Well, there is a lot of history behind it. It's not personal beef with people on my end. I'm just trying to make public the fact that Kava drinkers are being taken for a ride. It's not really a private issue, it's more of an industry issue.

Who is being taken for a ride? I think you are putting more significance in people's opinion of the current state of the TK project than actually exists.

 

[Kojo Douglas]

I mean, I started this thread trying to get the narrative straight. It went okay at first, but then I got lambasted for being a trouble maker, for not understanding the basics of agricultural societies in the south Pacific, for being a conspiracy theorist, etc.

 

[Kojo Douglas]

Who is being taken for a ride? I think you are putting more significance in people's opinion of the current state of the TK project than actually exists.

Well, I hope you're right

 

[Edward]

I mean, I started this thread trying to get the narrative straight. It went okay at first, but then I got lambasted for being a trouble maker, for not understanding the basics of agricultural societies in the south Pacific, for being a conspiracy theorist, etc.

You try and help people and do they appreciate it???!!!

 

[Edward]

Well, I hope you're right

Just look at the traffic going on, reviews, etc in the vendors section that aren't TK certified (which is the vast majority of them). There's a jumping kava market going on here with no certification at all.

 

[Kojo Douglas]

Ha! Look. I'll buy Kava from anyone and review it. I have consistently given GHK high marks. It doesn't get more honest than that.

 

[Edward]

I think you're fighting an old battle. For now at least.

 

[Edward]

Ha! Look. I'll buy Kava from anyone and review it. I have consistently given GHK high marks. It doesn't get more honest than that.

I wish you'd go back to doing the reviews ;-)

 

[kasa_balavu]

Face it, TK is selling us stickers. Nothing but stickers.

TK are selling nothing.
Some consumers wished for assurances that the product that they were drinking was of a specific quality. Somebody developed a system for giving those consumers what they wanted.

Consumers who trust that person and his system choose to buy products that he certifies. To them, the sticker means something.

A "Halal" or "Kosher" sticker means nothing to me, but I don't go around trashing what those stickers mean to the consumers who choose to buy products with those stickers on them.

 

[Kojo Douglas]

Well, I'm not going to go through the intellectual somersaults that equate TK stickers with Kosher or Halal food handling, but I get your point.

 

[HeadHodge]

I got an idea, if the so called "black listed" vendors have their kavas tested and proved to be noble, then we can publish the results here. If it turns out they are still selling adulterated kava with misleading labels, then we can burn them at the stake. Fair is fair. One more thing, if they say "Our Noble Kava has 25 percent Tudei in it", then we give them an H for Honesty and ya'all Tudei Loving Kavateers can buy it with both hands and with my blessing. But @Kavasseur, I hope you aren't implying that we welcome dishonest vendors with open arms. They gotta earn our respect and business. I don't care if they are TK compliant as long as they are not dishonest and their kava is labeled correctly.

With the new product profiles, we can now track the sort of information you're talking about. The main problem is actually getting the information and then adding it to the profile. Fortunately our new Vendor Admin (@KrunkyMonkey) is diligently working on getting a product profile set up for the products sold by the supported vendors here. But we still everyone's support to help obtain the information.

 

[verticity]

Uh oh, which of theirs is tudei? I just bought one of each...

Hopefully you are kidding. But to be clear, @Gourmet Hawaiian Kava does not sell tudei for human consumption. He doesn't sell it at all, actually. But he grows Isa plants as ornamental plants, and gives small samples of Isa to people to use as comparison standards for testing. I asked for some from him a while ago and he sent me a small packet, which I use for testing...

 

[Squanch72]

Yes, that's an issue I hadn't thought of. It's easier from the consumers perspective in some ways because as soon as there are a few reports of illness caused by a particular kava that kava and possibly even that vendor would struggle going forward. Presumably when you buy your kava you have to take the word of your supplier that it is noble? There are lots of good reviews for your kava so we can assume it is good kava but yes I can see the problem you are pointing out. Who knows what may happen with the next batch? Not wanting to put a dampener on your business of course, just exploring the issues.

I am speaking for any small sized vendor. I suppose but let's use me for an example. I think people who deal with me on the forums can tell I am super honest, and I have great faith in my supplier. He does the pounding and grinding. I have fallen in love with the root I can get from him. Needless to say I can't afford to buy in large bulk or afford the expense of the lab for every batch I get in. But I don't have faith in the acetone test either or let's say performing it properly myself, reading it wrong, or someone else reading it wrong. This is why I make no claim to having Noble root and have put that statement out there before. My supplier also has to try out different farms because of the cyclone. So I do get new root quite often. But I always love this root and think many people do too and think it still needs to get out to the public. So I drink the new root, see how I feel before I sell it to anyone, and go from there. I do have a confusion where Lawena always appears so light when I do an acetone test but Waka always has a more in between tone.
And let me go even further by talking about the Skunk Ape you may have heard of. One time I had access to try out a small load of Vanuatu root. Just to try it, I said whoa this must be tudei effects, acetone tests looks more orange than yellow, effects seem like tudei. I do like it on occasion, and I am a super lightweight. So no it isn't on the website, but I have a few friend/customers who I sell some of stash of it to that know I think it possibly is tudei. Like I said I like to be honest.
So really I don't like to label my Kava, or make claims of it being Noble, I just like to see if it makes me feel bad the next day after several sessions before I sell it.
So that is what I do since TK testing has been down.
Now I will also say, yeah only Kava Forum members say is it tested Noble. And I just told you what I tell them when they ask. Non forum members never ask.
I say all this to help out the next vendor trying to make a start, who may get the question in the first post, is it tested Noble? The more vendors the merrier. Just please remember they are going to be up against it if they don't have huge pockets.