A Call for a Truth and Reconciliation Discussion on the Noble vs. Tudei Controversy

[Groggy]

With the new product profiles, we can now track the sort of information you're talking about. The main problem is actually getting the information and then adding it to the profile. Fortunately our new Vendor Admin (@KrunkyMonkey) is diligently working on getting a product profile set up for the products sold by the supported vendors here. But we still everyone's support to help obtain the information.

View attachment 6707

I have added the majority of this information already, however as you pointed out @HeadHodge I do need some help from the vendors and perhaps the community to finish completing all those fields, I have reached out to some vendors in reference to other products missing information but i am still waiting to receive this info.
To all vendors, feel free to PM me your product details and I will edit it accordingly.

 

[Kojo Douglas]

The answer is in that post that @Deleted User made. He provided two possible solutions:

1. Make TK better so that all the vendors that qualify can be certified. This could be done with the subscription system he is considering which would allow for the hiring of staff to assist him.
2. Create other labs to certify kava using TK methods that TK is so generously willing to share.

The answer is not: Tear down TK to the benefit of iamshaman, kava.com, konakavafarm, and the other bad vendors.

Whoa. A world without TK is not a world where Kona Kava Farm rules the kingdom. Let's not get extreme here. Nobody is advocating for crap Kava

 

[TheKavaSociety]

And another peer-reviewed paper (August 2016! fresh off the press):

"

Rough translation:

Kava varieties: South Pacific distinguishes between "Noble" and "Two-day" Kava. The latter is
low quality and is suspected to have contributed to the observed adverse reactions.
Despite the warnings of local scientists, two-kava have been exported because it achieves high kavalactone
levels quickly with a signigicatly shorter time required by it to mature than in the case of noble kava.
However, unlike noble, tudei contains high concentrations of other compounds which are relevant from the point of view of discussions about liver toxicity. These compounds are present in just tiny amounts in noble kava."

 

[TheKavaSociety]

So yea, not sure about your assertion that the science is clear and that nobody links tudei to toxicity in Europe.

 

[TheKavaSociety]

So, virtually all kava scientists publishing on kava-related topics opposes tudei and recommends against consuming it for recreational purposes (or in general). It's not just Vincent Lebot and Patricia Simeoni, but Teschke, Schmidt, Kuchta, Sarris, all the researchers who conduct research on kava say the same thing. The currently on-going clinical trials in Queensland use exclusively noble kava partially because of ethical considerations!
In light of this overwhelming scientific consensus, TK insists that vendors promoting kava to non-traditional consumers should not promote tudei kava.

On the other hand we have @Kavasseur who thinks tudei is OK, because he personally enjoys its effects. And on this basis he declares it to be as safe as noble. He also demands that TK abandons its position/mission and starts promoting vendors who push potentially unsafe products.
Note that TK doesn't fight to ban tudei vendors, it just wants to promote those who choose not to promote it. Yes, it would be great if it had more resources to promote even more honest vendors. But to demand that it also promotes those who stand against everything TK believes in is just ludicrous, in my humble opinion.

 

[Kojo Douglas]

"Tudei is probably safer than ethanol, but noble is most certainly safer than tudei"

Flav K is in both Tudei and Noble, and to link Tudei to the health issues that occurred in Germany is doing a disservice to Kava. That connection has been roundly rejected.

 

[TheKavaSociety]

"Tudei is probably safer than ethanol, but noble is most certainly safer than tudei"

Flav K is in both Tudei and Noble, and to link Tudei to the health issues that occurred in Germany is doing a disservice to Kava. That connection has been roundly rejected.

The scientists I quoted (and their peer reviewed journal articles from 2015 and 2016) disagree. Levels of fk in noble are too small to trigger toxicity even when it's served in a concentrated form. Levels of fk in tudei is a totally different story. Read the quote above to see the difference. In fact Kuchta et al argue that tudei is THE issue and that there is no problem with organic noble kava extracts.

I am sorry the scientists do not agree with you. But I would suggest that the true disservice to Kava is not done by those who study it, but those who make big claims without any science to back them up.

 

[Kojo Douglas]

This is absolutely incredible.

I'm not taking the bait. Good luck with your crusade, Garry.

 

[Kojo Douglas]

And Henry, I have read those articles. Yes. Nothing in there suggests that Tudei is any more harmful than Bud Light.

 

[TheKavaSociety]

And Henry, I have read those articles. Yes. Nothing in there suggests that Tudei is any more harmful than Bud Light.

But they do strongly suggest that tudei is more harmful than noble kava.

Bud light is also much safer than sniffing glue. Does it mean we should be promoting it as something as safe as non-alcoholic beer?

Tudei has very high levels of fks. Much, much higher than noble. This could be useful in cancer research, but also makes it likely more risky than noble for regular drinking or when prepared in concentrated forms.

 

[Kojo Douglas]

Oh, brother....

 

[Edward]

@this thread... stop that... it's silly!

 

[Summer]

@Deleted User
I'm sorry for the loss of your parents, and so close together it seems.

 

[HeadHodge]

How hard would it be to re-create those colors with dye? If that were possible, then we could avoid using kava at all in the testing kit.

You read my mind, I've spent half a day at Google University trying to figure that out. But I can't for the life of me find out how to make a 'specific' color as opposed to a 'reference' color.

 

[HeadHodge]

.... to use your language, tudei is probably safer than ethanol, but noble is most certainly safer than tudei)

Abstaining from kava is the safest of all.

 

[TheKavaSociety]

Abstaining from kava is the safest of all.

Perhaps. But what matters isn't necessarily its mere potential for causing negative effects, but a risk to benefit ratio. Noble kava seems to have a favourable risk to benefit ratio. Can we say the same thing about tudei? I am not so sure. Perhaps in specific cases (cancer?) as suggested by @Palmetto , but it seems that most scientists do not think it's a favourable ratio when it comes to recreational or regular use.

 

[HeadHodge]

Perhaps. But what matters isn't necessarily its mere potential for causing negative effects, but a risk to benefit ratio. Noble kava seems to have a favourable risk to benefit ratio. Can we say the same thing about tudei?...

Exactly, except me being an alcoholic I don't compare Noble to Tudei, I compare kava to alcohol. I consider both Noble and Tudei as kava in my lexicon. I'm pretty sure you know what I mean.

 

[Kojo Douglas]

C'mon, Hodge! This is a gluten free forum. Didn't you get the memo? Also, you better leave those toxic Advil's at the door!

 

[HeadHodge]

C'mon, Hodge! This is a gluten free forum. Didn't you get the memo? Also, you better leave those toxic Advil's at the door!

Sure but you'll have to pull the NyQuil from my cold dead hands.