A Call for a Truth and Reconciliation Discussion on the Noble vs. Tudei Controversy

[Edward]

Hopefully you are kidding. But to be clear, @Gourmet Hawaiian Kava does not sell tudei for human consumption. He doesn't sell it at all, actually. But he grows Isa plants as ornamental plants, and gives small samples of Isa to people to use as comparison standards for testing. I asked for some from him a while ago and he sent me a small packet, which I use for testing...

No, not kidding, tell me about N@H?!

 

[Edward]

I am speaking for any small sized vendor. I suppose but let's use me for an example. I think people who deal with me on the forums can tell I am super honest, and I have great faith in my supplier. He does the pounding and grinding. I have fallen in love with the root I can get from him. Needless to say I can't afford to buy in large bulk or afford the expense of the lab for every batch I get in. But I don't have faith in the acetone test either or let's say performing it properly myself, reading it wrong, or someone else reading it wrong. This is why I make no claim to having Noble root and have put that statement out there before. My supplier also has to try out different farms because of the cyclone. So I do get new root quite often. But I always love this root and think many people do too and think it still needs to get out to the public. So I drink the new root, see how I feel before I sell it to anyone, and go from there. I do have a confusion where Lawena always appears so light when I do an acetone test but Waka always has a more in between tone.
And let me go even further by talking about the Skunk Ape you may have heard of. One time I had access to try out a small load of Vanuatu root. Just to try it, I said whoa this must be tudei effects, acetone tests looks more orange than yellow, effects seem like tudei. I do like it on occasion, and I am a super lightweight. So no it isn't on the website, but I have a few friend/customers who I sell it some of stash of it that know I think it possibly is tudei. Like I said I like to be honest.
So really I don't like to label my Kava, or make claims of it being Noble, I just like to see if it makes me feel bad the next day after several sessions before I sell it.
So that is what I do since TK testing has been down.
Now I will also say, yeah only Kava Forum members say is it tested Noble. And I just told you what I tell them when they ask. Non forum members never ask.
I say all this to help out the next guys trying to make a start, who may get the question in the first post, is it tested Noble? Just please remember they are going to be up against it if they don't have huge pockets.

I get you, I think you're doing it right.

 

[Deleted User01]

@HeadHodge, I'm glady you reminded us all that you have a vehicle already set up for the vendors. So all those vendors who are waiting to be certified, wait no longer. Tell us your story! We're good listeners and everyone is carrying an Acetone Test Pack in their back pocket. Just kidding ...

 

[Sam Handwich]

Peace? I don't think you understand the meaning of that word.
This thread makes me sad.
At first I thought this was going to be a respectful and productive conversation, as are most of the conversations that we have on this forum. It seems that is not to be the case. I have nothing but respect for the VOLUNTARY work that has been done by TK, it went a long way in convincing me of the safety of good, noble kava. I did enjoy your reviews as well but after witnessing your behavior on this thread and rereading the previous Tudei thread I realize that you are caustic to our community. No good is going to come from this conversation, we need to be an intelligent group united in the fight to secure a permanent legal status of good safe kava. This inter-bickering accomplishes nothing but hurting our cause. This thread should be closed.

 

[HeadHodge]

PM @Gourmet Hawaiian Kava .
What you really need is an inexpensive colorimeter that can measure the hue electronically.
I've been looking into making such a thing using colored LEDs and photodiodes.
Please stay tuned...it might be a while since I have an actual job, too...

I think some entrepreneur should make and sell a simple acetone kit here. My vision of the kit would be three glass tubes one empty, one with sample noble, and one with sample tudei (to be used as a color reference). Along with that a small qty of acetone and directions on how to perform a test using the acetone, the empty glass tube and a self provided kava sample.

That would be the basic home test but if more precision is desired, the test sample could be returned where a colorimeter would be used to more accurately measure the test samples wavelength.

I quickly looked at colorimeters online and if one can be obtained under $1000 I would be willing to participate in contributing towards the cost of obtaining one.

 

[Squanch72]

I think some entrepreneur should make and sell a simple acetone kit here. My vision of the kit would be three glass tubes one empty, one with sample noble, and one with sample tudei (to be used as a color reference). Along with that a small qty of acetone and directions on how to perform a test using the acetone, the empty glass tube and a self provided kava sample.

That would be the basic home test but if more precision is desired, the test sample could be returned where a colorimeter would be used to more accurately measure the test samples wavelength.

I quickly looked at colorimeters online and if one can be obtained under $1000 I would be willing to participate in contributing towards the cost of obtaining one.

You the Man Headgie, and the Man with the Plan!!!

 

[verticity]

No, not kidding, tell me about N@H?!

I was under the impression that they sold tudei (clearly and correctly labeled, which is cool with me). However I can't find it on their site now. Perhaps they stopped selling it, or I was thinking of a different vendor..

 

[CactusKava]

I mean, I started this thread trying to get the narrative straight. It went okay at first, but then I got lambasted for being a trouble maker, for not understanding the basics of agricultural societies in the south Pacific, for being a conspiracy theorist, etc.

1. These threads make me sad.
2. I think the issue with this thread, is that it seemed that you just wanted to open up old wounds. Getting a straight narrative is nearly impossible with anything historical, let alone a topic as divisive as this. If this is all you wanted to achieve, I would suggest to the mods that we lock this thread. This is crazy.

 

[TheKavaSociety]

I don't understand, why does @Kavasseur assume Garry doesn't do testing anymore? He does. He's just been very busy, but I do know that he's tested quite a few TK samples in the last couple of months. He just doesn't have enough time to test as many random samples from anonymous people and he needs much more time to test the samples he wants to test. Or to certify more people. But for instance - the Tongan waka you've tried was tested by Garry.

In any case, this is a private organisation, to use @kasa_balavu 's analogy that is also close to my heart, it's a bit like a rabbi that chooses what he considers to be kosher and what isn't. You seem to not be bothered by "non-kosher" kava and don't trust the rabbi. So why do you care and insist that those who want to eat kosher avoid rabbi's recommendations? Or insist that rabbi goes to synagogues which serve pork on the shabbat.
It's not just that you lack any scientific expertise on matters related to testing. I don't think you have honest intentions as you talk about very diverse and irreconcilable demands. On the one hand you demand that TK does more testing and works harder (with you being the only arbiter of how hard is hard enough). On the other hand, you demand that TK changes its own mission (promoting of noble kava and noble kava vendors) and starts certifying vendors who piss on this goal. So even if TK tested 10000 samples per day and certified 1000 vendors, you would still want to burn it because it wouldn't certify people who represent everything TK stands against in the industry. Is it reasonable? I personally don't think it is. But then it surely doesn't matter to you.

 

[verticity]

I think some entrepreneur should make and sell a simple acetone kit here. My vision of the kit would be three glass tubes one empty, one with sample noble, and one with sample tudei (to be used as a color reference). Along with that a small qty of acetone and directions on how to perform a test using the acetone, the empty glass tube and a self provided kava sample.

That would be the basic home test but if more precision is desired, the test sample could be returned where a colorimeter would be used to more accurately measure the test samples wavelength.

I quickly looked at colorimeters online and if one can be obtained under $1000 I would be willing to participate in contributing towards the cost of obtaining one.

It's weird, colorimeters are actually more expensive than spectrophotometers, which are more powerful. But I think what we really need is something that can be mass produced and bought by vendors and consumers for less than $100, so that vendors and consumers can easily do their own testing, without sending samples to any lab.

 

[HeadHodge]

It's weird, colorimeters are actually more expensive than spectrophotometers, which are more powerful. But I think what we really need is something that can be mass produced and bought by vendors and consumers for less than $100, so that vendors and consumers can easily do their own testing, without sending samples to any lab.

Let me know when you find one of those.

 

[verticity]

I think some entrepreneur should make and sell a simple acetone kit here. My vision of the kit would be three glass tubes one empty, one with sample noble, and one with sample tudei (to be used as a color reference). Along with that a small qty of acetone and directions on how to perform a test using the acetone, the empty glass tube and a self provided kava sample.

The thing is, the noble and tudei samples would have to be dry, because acetone solution does not keep it's color over time.. You would have to mix up all three samples each time you test. If you leave it in a test tube a long time it changes color.

 

[HeadHodge]

The thing is, the noble and tudei samples would have to be dry, because acetone solution does not keep it's color over time.. You would have to mix up all three samples each time you test. If you leave it in a test tube a long time it changes color.

Well I think that's doable, as part of the directions: user adds acetone to the provided samples

 

[kasa_balavu]

The thing is, the noble and tudei samples would have to be dry, because acetone solution does not keep it's color over time.. You would have to mix up all three samples each time you test. If you leave it in a test tube a long time it changes color.

How hard would it be to re-create those colors with dye? If that were possible, then we could avoid using kava at all in the testing kit.

 

[Kojo Douglas]

Alright, I'm going to recap this so that those who are now jumping in and perceiving me as some kind of spiteful villain can understand what is happening here. It looks like at least one person has been persuaded that I'm some kind of caustic, horrible person. I'm not.

The roots of Kava (Piper methysticum) have traditionally been used to make a safe drink. Plain and simple.

As far as this thread goes, I was trying to end a discussion that started years ago. As I said before, I know many vendors in this community. I am friends with many of them. Without mentioning any names, I know of at least two that have closed shop, and a few that struggle because they can't get TK to give them the time of day. This isn't fair. Hence my reopening of the topic.

The Kava ban in Europe had nothing to do with Tudei. It had to do with Kava mixed with other chemicals that made it dangerous, even lethal. As a response, Vanuatu singled out Tudei as a no-export Kava varietal because of higher flav K content. The science has shown that the amount of flav K is negligible and not harmful. We can close the file on that one.

However, because of this original assumption, Hawaiian Kava growers can control what kind of Kava they grow quite easily. Vendors who import Kava from Melanesia, however, don't have this advantage. Much of the Kava that might be sold as Noble could be Tudei, or "spiked" with Tudei as some people say. Again, this is a quality control issue contextualized within agricultural markets. You can't blame Hawaiian growers for this any more than you can blame Melanesian growers.

Despite all this, people are still arguing that Tudei is deadly, causes damage to vital organs, etc. They want Tudei to be totally banned. They want vendors who sell Tudei to be blacklisted. I fundamentally disagree with this. That is where the thread heated up.

I stated my respect for all parties involved: Chris, KWK, Cactus Kava, and others who got TK certification.

Deleted User came in and tried to rebuke a pertinent post I made. That is when people started taking sides and the discussion lost traction. I don't completely blame Deleted User for this, we all have tempers.

It got really heated when Chris called me a "troublemaker" amongst other things.

I asserted that I believe certain TK-certified vendors are unfairly benefitting from the current system and that TK is nothing but a sticker machine.

@Deleted User01 in another thread, bless his soul, came up with an alternative idea. Squanch also expressed discomfort with labeling Kava at all, since it's actually really hard to know what you are getting from bag-to-bag (I couldn't agree more).

So as it stands, tempers did flare up. I got angry. Other people got angry. The Kava gods got angry.

So back to the original question: where are we on this? Where do we go with TK? If new vendors can't get certified, does that not unfairly burden them? Is this system fair?

These are not illegitimate or mean-spirited questions.

 

[Kojo Douglas]

1. These threads make me sad.
2. I think the issue with this thread, is that it seemed that you just wanted to open up old wounds. Getting a straight narrative is nearly impossible with anything historical, let alone a topic as divisive as this. If this is all you wanted to achieve, I would suggest to the mods that we lock this thread. This is crazy.

See my above post. This wasn't my intention at all!

 

[CactusKava]

See my above post. This wasn't my intention at all!

I understand that. It might have been how you structured the whole thing.

Just some constructive criticism: If the end goal is to come out with a solution to the problems you're seeing, what might have been a better idea is to propose solutions to try and come to an agreement, rather than addressing issues you have with an organization you have no way of changing.

 

[TheKavaSociety]

The Kava ban in Europe had nothing to do with Tudei. It had to do with Kava mixed with other chemicals that made it dangerous, even lethal. As a response, Vanuatu singled out Tudei as a no-export Kava varietal because of higher flav K content. The science has shown that the amount of flav K is negligible and not harmful. We can close the file on that one.
.

Which part of Kuchta et al's paper do you disagree with? Do you have any additional information that invalidate their concerns? They present a set of arguments against just blaming extracts, mould etc and instead believe tudei could be the key problematic factor. Just a small quote:

"
Until the “two-day kava” cultivar Palisi was systematically planted for the production of acetone extracts, the export of two-day cultivars was not an issue in Vanuatu or in other Pacific kava-producing nations. Thus, the introduction of two-day kava into German kava products clearly constitutes a novelty and a sudden change in plant drug quality, a fact communicated early to BfArM, but never taken seriously, albeit the sudden occurrence of case reports in Switzerland was exclusively related to this par- ticular acetone extract [7]. Only after the public warning of BfArM against kava were case reports with ethanol extracts collected. However, almost all of them were very poorly documented, and in most cases there were indications of other, non-kava related causes.

Avoiding the use of two-day kava is a recommendation clearly based on ethnobotanic experience. However, the differences in the kavalactone composition could only serve for the differentia- tion between “noble” and “two-day” kava cultivars, but they would not explain the occurrence of liver toxicity. Kavalactones have been tested in assays, but have never been found toxic [44]. The obvious question would be whether anything is known about other constituents.

The well-documented anxiolytic effect of kava preparations can mainlybeattributedtothefractionsofthekavalactones(l" Fig.1; for the absolute configurations see [50]). Another fraction of phe- nolic kava compounds are the flavokavins (l" Fig.2). Among these, pure flavokavin B [37] and further flavokavins [51] were found to be potentially liver toxic in mice, whereas dihydrome- thysticin was shown to be nontoxic. Toxicity seems to be trig- gered only at relatively high concentrations, too high to be of relevance with the use of noble kava or its corresponding extract preparations [42].

However, newly published data demonstrate differences in the flavokavin content of different kava cultivars (l" Fig. 3): Lebot et al. showed a flavokavin B to kavalactones ratio of 0.39 in two- day kavas, and of 0.09 in noble kavas, based on the HPTLC analy- sis of samples of 72 different cultivars [52]. Similar findings were presented in 2012 in the High Level Conference on Kava in Port Vila, Vanuatu [44, 53] with a limited set of five representative cul- tivars based on an HPLC analysis: two noble cultivars (Borogu and Kelai), two two-day cultivars (Palisi and Bir Fok), and one P. wichmannii type (Sinibo) (l" Fig. 3).

Based on the analyses of this still ongoing project, flavokavin B could be used as a marker for the determination of kava quality. From a practical point of view, a limitation of flavokavin B con- tent to 2 mg/g of dried material would be sufficient to assure the use of noble kava and thus the possibility to lean on traditional safety experience.

Results from a currently ongoing research program in the South Pacific so far confirm these findings. Roots and peeled stumps of noble kava varieties usually contain less than 1 mg/g of flavoka- vin B in the dry matter, whereas the bark (“peelings”) frequently contains higher quantities than 2 mg/g in noble varieties, mostly exceeding 5 mg/g in non-noble varieties, especially in plant parts exposed to sunlight (unpublished data). These findings corrobo- rate the traditional use of roots and peeled rhizome stumps only,
and the avoidance of non-peeled materials and sun-exposed plant parts.
Such unsuitable plant parts, especially peelings of two-day kava, are unfortunately still sold by certain traders in Vanuatu and Fiji (in the latter case, with re-exported material from Vanuatu). Va- nuatu has officially banned exports of two-day kava through the Vanuatu kava act, but does not have the means to control the qual- ity of the exports. Furthermore, this law unfortunately makes an exception from this prohibition of exporting two-day kava plant materials when the client specifically demands such a quality – a loophole in the legislation extensively used by some traders."

 

[kasa_balavu]

Deleted User came in and tried to rebuke a pertinent post I made.
...
So back to the original question: where are we on this? Where do we go with TK? If new vendors can't get certified, does that not unfairly burden them? Is this system fair?

The answer is in that post that @Deleted User made. He provided two possible solutions:

1. Make TK better so that all the vendors that qualify can be certified. This could be done with the subscription system he is considering which would allow for the hiring of staff to assist him.
2. Create other labs to certify kava using TK methods that TK is so generously willing to share.

The answer is not: Tear down TK to the benefit of iamshaman, kava.com, konakavafarm, and the other bad vendors.

 

[TheKavaSociety]

And their conclusion:

"
The problem of possible hepatoxicity of kava preparations was potentially caused by ill-defined herbal drug identity [i.e. confusing tudei with noble], a lack appropriate quality control and misguided regulatory policis"

This is the most recent peer reviewed paper on these issues. Some of the authors have expressed even stronger words in private conversations, non-peer reviewed papers. They all believe that it was tudei that was the key culprit in the European liver paranoia (they admit the risk is tiny, to use your language, tudei is probably safer than ethanol, but noble is most certainly safer than tudei)