American Kava Association?

[Marreo64]

The text you wrote is not lengthy at all compared to all the time i have been putting in to learning about all this. I like to learn, but also want to get to the bottom of why my urine was brown. Not dark yellow, but literally brown...
That is a sign of liver distress. So you guys may assure me that kava is safe and may be more experienced in using kava. But because of how worried/upset i was i am pretty sure i may have put in as much time as many of you reading about kava. I have learned a lot.
I personally believe there is a major difference in tudei vs noble safety.
Flavowaikin B is literally proven to be toxic to liver cells. If you drink something with flaviwaikin B in it, its going to end up in your liver.


there is a good reason Dr. Lebot tells people not to drink tudei kava in that video i posted.

I personally belive tudei kava to be something people shoukd avoid. I wonder if the kava i drank had some tudei mixed in and i am doing what i can to figure that out.

Yes i believe noble is really safe.

 

[verticity]

The text you wrote is not lengthy at all compared to all the time i have been putting in to learning about all this. I like to learn, but also want to get to the bottom of why my urine was brown. Not dark yellow, but literally brown...
That is a sign of liver distress. So you guys may assure me that kava is safe and may be more experienced in using kava. But because of how worried/upset i was i am pretty sure i may have put in as much time as many of you reading about kava. I have learned a lot.
I personally believe there is a major difference in tudei vs noble safety.
Flavowaikin B being is literally proven to be toxic to liver cells. If you drink something with flaviwaikin B in it, its going to end up in your liver.


All i will say is there is a good reason Dr. Lebot tells people not to drink tudei kava in that video i posted.

Liver disease is not the only possible cause of brown urine:
http://www.healthline.com/health/brown-urine-causes#causes3

The point about FKB is that although you are right that it has been shown to be toxic to liver cells in a test tube ("in vitro"), it has not been proven to damage the livers of living organisms ("in vivo"). The following paper by Vincent Lebot and colleagues:

Teschke, Rolf, Samuel X. Qiu, and Vincent Lebot. "Herbal hepatotoxicity by kava: update on pipermethystine, flavokavain B, and mould hepatotoxins as primarily assumed culprits." Digestive and Liver Disease 43.9 (2011): 676-681.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S159086581100048X

concludes that:

"...There is abundant data of in vitro cytotoxicity including apoptosis by pipermethystine and flavokavain B added to the incubation media, yet evidence is lacking of in vivo hepatotoxicity in experimental animals under conditions similar to human kava use. Furthermore, in commercial Western kava extracts, pipermethystine was not detectable and flavokavain B was present as a natural compound in amounts much too low to cause experimental liver injury..."​

and that molds are more likely to be the culprit (if there is any culprit).

Having said that, I definitely don't recommend drinking tudei--not so much out of concerns about liver problems, but simply because it tends to cause bad effects for people.

 

[Bula Kava House]

@Marreo64 The amount of misinformation online regarding kava (and everything else for that matter) is insane. As much as you've read over the last couple days, it's hard to say how much of it is valid. With all due respect, the time you've put into this research doesn't compare to many of the people who have responded here to try to reduce your anxiety. Many members of this forum have dedicated years to parsing through the available research, information, and theories to come to an informed opinion about kava and kava safety. Some of us have a direct line of contact with Dr. Lebot and other prominent kava researchers as well.

I'm not going to tell you again that the kava hasn't damaged your liver. You apparently don't want to accept that. My suggestion is to go get your liver checked and don't drink any more kava until you do. Once you have those results you can compare them to previous results, which you must have because you've mentioned a previously compromised liver, and decide if your single kava session caused permanent damage. If your conclusion makes you feel comfortable to make kava part of your life, it is recommended that you choose noble kava. We only sell noble kava, as do several other active forum members. We would be happy to point you in the right direction.

 

[Marreo64]

Someone above said...

"it has not been proven to damage the livers of living organisms ("in vivo"). "

Ok. Have you guys read this study?
What do you say about it?


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2992378/

Here is a quote from that study...

"We further demonstrate by noninvasive bioluminescence imaging that oral consumption of FKB leads to inhibition of hepatic NF-κB transcriptional activity in vivo and severe liver damage. "


I have found someone previously posted that the AKA instead of telling people not to sell tudei was saying they wanted tudei to be allowed. They wanted the selling of tudei kava at a point in time AFTER Dr. Lebot suggested people Not drink it.

http://kavaforums.com/forum/threads/aka-now-endorses-tudei-isa.2758/#post-27715

Why would anyone even want to risk someones health like that??? That is the same company i bought my kava from and has me alarmed.
This makes me as a newcomer to kava not want anything to do with AKA's suggestions or companies that support it...

 

[verticity]

Ok. Have you guys read this study?
What do you say about it?


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2992378/

Here is a quote from that study...

"We further demonstrate by noninvasive bioluminescence imaging that oral consumption of FKB leads to inhibition of hepatic NF-κB transcriptional activity in vivo and severe liver damage. "


Also you say "we" only sell noble kava. But i am not sure who is included in your "we". I have found someone previously posted that the owners of AKA was actually endorsing the selling of tudei kava at a point in time after doctor Lebot himself suggested people not drink it.

Why would anyone even want to risk someones health like that??? That is the same company i bought my kava from and has me alarmed.

Lebot addressed that study in his paper:

"In other studies, flavokavain B was present in ethanolic extracts of kava roots [23,24,28,43,44] with a ten-fold higher amount when the Two-Day cultivar Palisi was used compared to the Ava La’au variety of Samoa, a noble kava cultivar [25,28]. On a quantitative basis, ethanolic extracts derived from the roots of various kava cultivars including noble cultivars and Two-Day cultivars contained 0.35–32.3mg flavokavain B/g dry weight, with corresponding figures of 66.1–548.8mg kavalactones/g dry weight [25,28]. Based on these results, in ethanolic extracts 0.54–7.06mg flavokavain B are found equating to 120mg kavalactones [28], the maximum kavalactone dose recommended for daily human use [8,11,14,22]. Therefore, a previous German ethanolic kava extract with the maximum daily recommended amount of 120mg kavalactones contained also 0.54–1.83mg flavokavain B compared to 6.39–7.06mg present in extracts derived from non-drink kava cultivars including Two-Day varieties [25]. The worst case scenario with 7.06mg flavokavain B taken up in association with 120mg kavalactones per day by a 70kg individual would result in a daily uptake of 0.1mg flavokavain B/kg body weight (Table 1). In experimental animals, however, modest signs of hepatotoxicity are observed with in vivo application of flavokavain B only at a daily dose of 25mg per kg body weight [44] [Note: this is the 2010 paper by Zhou et al], a value 250 times higher than the usual daily uptake of patients. Certainly, when amounts of flavokavain B are calculated and converted from animals to humans, additional evaluations might be useful discussing the normalization of body surface area (BSA) method [47]. It is also unclear whether the in vitro results obtained for flavokavain B with human hepatoma and normal liver cells [43,44] are principally transferable to patients with kava hepatotoxicity; keeping in mind that other studies with flavokavain B seem to show an absence of toxicity in therapeutic doses or even a hepatoprotective effect [6,28,41,46]. At present, however, these preliminary studies do not necessarily substantiate flavokavain B as the primary culprit for human kava hepatotoxicity, requiring additional assessments."
​

So my earlier statement based on looking at the abstract was not 100% correct: FKB has been shown in a single study to possibly damage the livers of mice, but only when they are given massive doses of it that are much higher than the amount of FKB in tudei extracts. Also there are conflicting studies that do not support the damage seen in this one study.

Of course, I am all for avoiding tudei and always recommend traditional preparation with water, which would make the levels of FKB even lower.

 

[CactusKava]

Except for flavokawain b
Also. Dr Vincet Lebot suggests not to use tudei...


Also those 40 causes of dark urine does not apply. There is a major difference between BROWN, and just dark yellow. I likely have read all the articles you are going to find to put here. Brown is specifically liver related. Or blood in urine. All i know is a git brown urine the day i drank this kava. I am almost 100 percent positive that if i did not drink kava, my urine would have not just magically turned brown that day.

Also i am being pointed to things that say Kava can do liver damage, but its rare. The article states there is much more of this seen with other drugs. Well yeah obviously! The amount of kava users to other drug users is goinf to be ridiculously less. So of course your going to see more cases with other drugs.

It seems to me the evidence clearly shows some type/part of kava can affect your liver. RARE does not mean NEVER. And i have a hunch that the people who see the effects are people with already weakened livers.

If your liver is healthy your likely fine.
Same with alcohol. We know alcohol affects the liver. But if you dont go crazy with it your pretty much gonna be fine.

Here is an exact quote from the thread you gave j
"However, the frequency of hepatotoxicity for kava is, on current information, substantially lower than for these conventional drugs"

So how can people here try to say kava does absolutely nothing to the liver and there is absolutely 0 evidence?
The word "lower" does not mean "zero"

Or someone else here said kava does no damage to healthy livers, but if you were a heavy drinker the safety cannot be guaranteed. How is that logical? It either does damage or it does not. If kava only does a small amount of damage then a healthy liver would tolerate it. But a weakened already diseased liver may not. That is what i think happened to me and the other person. We both had messed up livers and could not handle a NEW type of stress... So our liver failed as something in the poor quality kava affected it producing the brown urine until the body cleared it out...

I like how you conveniently left out everything else I said. I wasn't defending tudei, I was defending kava. Additionally, I only sell noble, and I abhor tudei, so you're barking up the wrong tree about how much you dislike tudei.

@verticity Could probably back me up here, but I remember a theory at one point stating that one of the other chemicals within kava could potentially counteract the the FKs within kava. If you take just FKB, you might see problems, but if you combined FKB with another one of the chemicals within kava, you don't see issues. I could be mixing up the science (I'm just a guy who's drank kava for years, studied it,and sells it on the side, what do I know?), but if my memory serves me right that could explain the lack of problems surrounding kava and liver damage.

Go get a liver test and report back. Until then, I'm going to consider this a non-issue (like the National Institute of Health has concluded).

 

[verticity]

I like how you conveniently left out everything else I said. I wasn't defending tudei, I was defending kava. Additionally, I only sell noble, and I abhor tudei, so you're barking up the wrong tree about how much you dislike tudei.

@verticity Could probably back me up here, but I remember a theory at one point stating that one of the other chemicals within kava could potentially counteract the the FKs within kava. If you take just FKB, you might see problems, but if you combined FKB with another one of the chemicals within kava, you don't see issues. I could be mixing up the science (I'm just a guy who's drank kava for years, studied it,and sells it on the side, what do I know?), but if my memory serves me right that could explain the lack of problems surrounding kava and liver damage.

Go get a liver test and report back. Until then, I'm going to consider this a non-issue (like the National Institute of Health has concluded).

There was a theory that glutathione, which is an antioxidant that is present in water extracts of kava, but less so--or not at all--in solvent extracts, has a protective effect that prevents FKB from harming liver cells. There is a theoretical basis for that idea, but as far as I know it hasn't been proven experimentally.

 

[Deleted User01]

Hey, Professor @verticity. How would you compare the liver toxicity of Flavo B to let's say ... alcohol?

 

[verticity]

Hey, Professor @verticity. How would you compare the liver toxicity of Flavo B to let's say ... alcohol?

I don't know my hirsute friend. It's apples vs. oranges.

 

[Deleted User01]

I don't know my hirsute friend. It's apples vs. oranges.

Hey, how did you know I was wearing a HairSuit. Man you got brains and psycho powers too. I was hoping that someday we would have research that would overwhelming prove that alcohol is way more dangerous than Kava and even more dangerous than Tudei. I personally can attest to the fact that an alcohol hangover is overwhelmingly more unpleasant than a kava hangover. But with Kava, I don't feel the urge to overindulge so there is no hangover.

 

[verticity]

Hey, how did you know I was wearing a HairSuit. Man you got brains and psycho powers too. I was hoping that someday we would have research that would overwhelming prove that alcohol is way more dangerous than Kava and even more dangerous than Tudei. I personally can attest to the fact that an alcohol hangover is overwhelmingly more unpleasant than a kava hangover. But with Kava, I don't feel the urge to overindulge so there is no hangover.

To attempt a serious answer, here is some information about alcoholic liver disease:
http://www.liverfoundation.org/abouttheliver/info/alcohol/
According to the American Liver Foundation (call 1-800-GO-LIVER for more information!) alcoholic hepatitis, which is the second stage of alcohol caused liver disease and involves "fat deposition in liver cells, inflammation and mild scarring of the liver," happens to "up to 35 percent of heavy drinkers," and the most advanced form of liver disease, cirrhosis, affects "between 10 and 20 percent of heavy drinkers."

Here are some statistics about how many people die from alcohol related liver disease:
https://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh27-3/209-219.htm

Quote:

"Alcoholic hepatitis usually is diagnosed when a liver biopsy indicates inflammatory changes, liver degeneration, fibrosis, and other changes to liver cells. Common clinical signs of alcoholic hepatitis include swollen liver, nausea, vomiting, and abdominal pain. Patients also may experience fever, jaundice, liver failure, and bleeding. The rate of mortality in severe cases is about 50 percent. If heavy drinking continues, about 40 percent of cases of alcoholic hepatitis will develop into cirrhosis.

...Cirrhosis of the liver is the most serious form of ALD and a cause of many deaths and serious illnesses....The 5–year survival rate for people with cirrhosis who stop drinking is about 90 percent, compared with 70 percent of those who do not stop drinking. However, for late–stage cirrhosis—that is, when jaundice, accumulation of fluid in the abdomen (ascites), or gastrointestinal bleeding have occurred—the survival rate is only 60 percent for those who stop drinking and 35 percent for those who do not....

Liver cirrhosis is a major cause of death in the United States ... In 2000, it was the 12th leading cause of death, accounting for 1.1 percent of all deaths, with an age–adjusted death rate of 9.6 per 100,000 population." [Note that that death rate is for the entire population, not just heavy alcohol drinkers]​

In the case of kava, the rates of liver disease are too low to really get good statistics like this from. It's possible the numbers for kava are extremely small, and it is also possible they are zero. In any case, alcohol is way worse for your liver. If alcohol were a new thing that did not have a long history as part of our culture, it would never be approved by the FDA/EMA/TGA.

 

[verticity]

Let me put this another way.

In 2014 in the US, 19,388 people died from alcoholic liver disease, and a total of 30,722 people died from alcohol related diseases including liver disease and other things (but not including accidents or homicides).
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/alcohol.htm

Now suppose that some doctor published a case report about each of those deaths. Suppose each case report is 5 pages. If you stacked all the case reports on top of eachother, you would have a stack of paper that could reach the moon from the Earth...um...on a scale model where the moon is 8 meters from the Earth.... That was just one year in one country. If you considered all the alcohol-related deaths around the world in the 20th century, say, you could probably get out to a scale model of Uranus...

So there.

 

[Ken]

I dont think its a matter of "IF". Flavokawain B is confirmed to be toxic to liver cells. I will find the studies for you and put them here with an edit.
Plus my urine was literally brown. Not dark yellow.

Once i can confirm this kava's profile i will be able to know better what is going on. Flavokawain B is only high in tudei.
But if you research "brown" urine in almost all cases it is indicating liver/kidney damage.

Also. Yes someone with a healthy liver may not notice any effects from using tudei kava from a couple tries. Liver damage is not something you can "feel"
But someone with an already damaged liver would. In both cases me and this other person were heavy drinkers and may have damaged livers which is why we could be affected more by flavowakin B.

I've been a heavy kava user, buying from many vendors, including Kona Kava Farm. For five years I drank their Kona Kava Plus product every day. I've since switched to other vendors just to try different stuff. I've had multiple medical tests and my liver enzyme levels are always normal. I'm not defending any particular vendor, just reporting my experience. If you are concerned about liver damage, see your doctor and get tested. And let us know what you find!
Ken


Edit: more to come

http://m.fasebj.org/content/24/12/4722.short[/QUOTE]